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Thread: Bill Frank's story about brainwashing (thread merge)

  1. #301
    Patron with Honors SirRalliart's Avatar
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    Default Hidden in plain sight?

    I suppose the data about O/W not being the only source of a blow has been hidden in plain sight. Just look at C/S Series 78, which is used to indoc people virtually every time someone is acting "out-list." LRH plainly states that wrong indication/wrong list item is a source of blows. Also, look at Int Rd Series 7 where LRH talks about Int being a reason for blows.

    Unfortunately, the untrained and even trained "execs" foist off onto their sheep staff that O/W is the only reason for blows. What about the 5 main blow reasons(students) and the other 4 for auditing blows from whatever that HCOB was. How many times did we have to do that damn verbatim drill and chinese school on those?????

    Even the HCOB on what lies behind O/W...the MU!

    My point is that there have always been other "reasons" for a blow once you got past Tech Vol VI. How many times have we assessed a C/S 53 and "only" got Int and list charge and no O/W charge?? That's not to say that we were not later "forced" to "go get the bloody withhold."

    I'd put down exact quotes but I left my Tech Vols in my office when I blew! Now that would be an overt from a FZ or Indie viewpoint.

    Very interesting thread nonetheless!

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn View Post
    I'd call it more of a confirmation than a revelation, if anyone reading this board hasn't figured out by now that Hubbard was nothing but a sleazy con man who was only interesting in enslaving victims to serve his cult, they are either in serious denial, or really fucking stupid, or both.

    I'd love to see more people such as Bill Franks come out and tell their first hand accounts of Hubbard, but I'm not sure how many more people want to bother coming out to tell their Hubbard related cult stories, most people have moved on with their lives and probably aren't interested in reliving their youth on message boards, besides most people only want to reminisce about the good times, I doubt many Holocaust survivors want to rehash the years they spent in concentration camps all that often.
    ChuckNorris, not everyone reading here is at the point of knowing what we have come to know. Everyone deserves to come to know for themselves the truth. Certainly you at one time were ignorant of Hubbard's ways, as I once was. Denigrating people for not knowing yet does nothing but put animosity in the way. Franks revealed something. That is why I called it a revelation. Yes, it's a confirmation for those who already know but many things we have come to know are read as revelations to those who did not know until then. The idea is to encourage those who have not seen, to look. Truth makes it possible to keep looking for more truth.

    So, yes, I too would love for more to speak out and tell their stories and it is never a comfortable thing to do but it is cathartic and it encourages others to look and speak out, too. That is the history of Scientology being exposed on the internet, something Hubbard never anticipated. The internet is our liberty tree, as Arnie Lerma once coined it. It is our tool for evolving out of the lies. Calling people stupid for not knowing and for holding onto lies for fear of the truth is kind of juvenile.
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  3. #303
    Patron with Honors chuckbeatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olska View Post
    Who is Bill Franks? With no disrespect to the man intended,...

    In the world OUTSIDE scientology, he is apparently "just another guy" with about the same amount of influence on those close around him (family, friends, business associates, and community connections) as the rest of us.

    In the world INSIDE scientology and now INSIDE the "ex"scientology community, he's a guy with big, big altitude.

    It's really lovely and helpful that Bill, an "opinion leader" in scientology who is now an "opinion leader" in EX-scientology, has come out with the big revelation that:

    upsets (ARCx), not overts and withholds, are the reason people blow (leave).

    Well strike me blind and dumb! Some of us who were never, and are still not, "opinion leaders" (in either or any other group) have been pointing that out for some time now, and have been pointing out how "confession" in scientology is used not to "help" but rather to control people ... but obviously our opinions just didn't carry enough weight because hardly anyone seemed to notice.

    So. Thanks to this thread, we have all learned another great lesson! and that lesson is:

    rather than thinking things out for themselves, many people will only believe something when it is spoken or written by people with "altitude," whose opinions they value more than their own.

    All righty then.

    Now tell me again, how was it that people got sucked into and lost so much in the scam called "scientology"?
    Read my comments, I give a portion of Bill's impact on the movement.

    Bill worked as a commanding officer in Class 4/5 orgs, that were making 20-50 Gs income weekly, he was an extremely viable commanding officier, he was Sea Org, his wife at that time of his being the CO of Class 4/5 orgs, was I think Jeannie (Danilovich maiden name, and John Danilovich's sister, John's an exec today at the Flag Service Org I believe still, her later married names were Hare, Franks, Bogvad, and today she's Sonnenfeld and she's the ED of Cinncy org), he and Jeannie were a very productive team at DC Org in the mid to late 1970s, he was brought to Flag, RPFed, then the RPF was all cancelled, he become CO Int Training Org, which was then at Flag (and Flag means Clearwater, this was the late 1970s before the management transition from the old Commodore's Staff Aides/Flag Bureaux setup to the new Watchdog Committee/CMO Int/Exec Strata setup), and Bill went from a couple very productive years (maybe all total a year and half at ITO) to being appointed the first Executive Director International, head of the original LRH ordered Exec Strata setup.

    See my other posts on this thread.

    Bills a huge productive executive in Sea Org history. He was the HAS (HCO Area Sec) at Boston Org back I think in 1974, when Bostom boomed, and Bill and three other Flag (Apollo Flag at that time) were set on the "do or die" COmmand Team Mission to take over and run Boston Org.

    Tons of Boston people remember that time ("engram", glorious time, whatever it was pretty draconion, but they GOT booming income).

    Bills part of an earlier generation of Sea Org officer execs.

    Anyways, he was proposed for ED Int, and LRH approved it, period, end of argument about Bill Franks' production history in LRH's eyes!

    There is so much history that only older timers who are burned out and have given up on this whole Sea Org Scientology saga feel is a joke and irredeemable, but I contend that only the senior ex leaders have the best hindsight suggestions of how to turn the current Scientology horrendous abusive scene around.

    Scientology has a ton of wealth, it's NOT gonna just fall apart.

    I encourage ex Scientology leaders to offer some constructive suggestions within existing policy options.

    Bill as ED Int, were he on post, if he could conceive of that, the ED Int postition has every right to issue the complete unconditional, no holds barred, international amnesty, which for one would immediately eliminate the disconnection blackmail horror that Scientology still perpetrates.

    ED Int could get his Int Execs to offer the policy solutions to the major problems. (Pricing;eliminate OSA;just go on down the list of ALL of the major criticisms of official Scientology and face and handle EACH major criticism)

    LRH ain't arround to solve the movement's major controversies, and likely due to his own faults, he might neglect to handle those problems, just like LRH failed to face and handle those problems before he died.

    Well the movement IS stuck holding the bag of all LRH's ingrained policy constraints, and it inevitably will have to be faced and reformed.

    I hope Bill before he dies, offers some suggestions on things.
    Chuck Beatty
    ex Sea Org (1975-2003)
    412-260-1170
    chuckbeatty77@aol.com

    "I think a lot of my father's stuff doesn't work. So I false report whenever I need to. Personally, I think my father's crazy."
    - Quentin Hubbard Class 12 Scientologist, statement to Dennis Erlich
    http://www.lermanet.com/exit/quentincoroner.htm

  4. #304
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    Default hear hear

    well said

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonyMary View Post
    ChuckNorris, not everyone reading here is at the point of knowing what we have come to know. Everyone deserves to come to know for themselves the truth. Certainly you at one time were ignorant of Hubbard's ways, as I once was. Denigrating people for not knowing yet does nothing but put animosity in the way. Franks revealed something. That is why I called it a revelation. Yes, it's a confirmation for those who already know but many things we have come to know are read as revelations to those who did not know until then. The idea is to encourage those who have not seen, to look. Truth makes it possible to keep looking for more truth.

    So, yes, I too would love for more to speak out and tell their stories and it is never a comfortable thing to do but it is cathartic and it encourages others to look and speak out, too. That is the history of Scientology being exposed on the internet, something Hubbard never anticipated. The internet is our liberty tree, as Arnie Lerma once coined it. It is our tool for evolving out of the lies. Calling people stupid for not knowing and for holding onto lies for fear of the truth is kind of juvenile.
    John Brownlee
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    Delivered 10,000-12,000 auditing hours while on staff
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    Declared SP at Flag in '82

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by MostlyLurker View Post
    I don't see any "altitude" from Bill Franks at all, I see him humble, and that is appreciated.

    On FB, to the question by Robin Scott and Dennis Erlich if he was willing to take back the post of ED Int he wrote:Also chosing the screen name of "wogman" is a sign of no altitude to me. (I see he has Bill Franks as screen name here, maybe Emma helped him and created the account with his name, but originally, he attemped to register as 'wogman')

    About the message Bill wanted to be posted on ESMB, many (most) of people who left Co$ already knew that the equation blow=overt/withhold is bulshit. Different thing is to know that LRH himself knew it, yet he lied to keep ruling Scientology and people's lives.

    Bill is thanked for his willigness to share his knowledge.
    "Altitude" comes not from a person considering themself "above" you (any fool can make claims to such placement, and I don't see that Bill Franks did that) but rather from you considering yourself "below" that person.

    My post was not a criticism of Bill Franks or of the information he relayed in his post. If that's what you thought, then you missed the point. Oh well.

  6. #306
    Patron with Honors chuckbeatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirRalliart View Post
    I suppose the data about O/W not being the only source of a blow has been hidden in plain sight. Just look at C/S Series 78, which is used to indoc people virtually every time someone is acting "out-list." LRH plainly states that wrong indication/wrong list item is a source of blows. Also, look at Int Rd Series 7 where LRH talks about Int being a reason for blows.

    Unfortunately, the untrained and even trained "execs" foist off onto their sheep staff that O/W is the only reason for blows. What about the 5 main blow reasons(students) and the other 4 for auditing blows from whatever that HCOB was. How many times did we have to do that damn verbatim drill and chinese school on those?????

    Even the HCOB on what lies behind O/W...the MU!

    My point is that there have always been other "reasons" for a blow once you got past Tech Vol VI. How many times have we assessed a C/S 53 and "only" got Int and list charge and no O/W charge?? That's not to say that we were not later "forced" to "go get the bloody withhold."

    I'd put down exact quotes but I left my Tech Vols in my office when I blew! Now that would be an overt from a FZ or Indie viewpoint.

    Very interesting thread nonetheless!
    Exactly. I mentioned that Flag "case cracking" is simply expert assessment of the C/S 53 and another prepared correction list, I forget which. LRH ebbed and flowed on what he thought the "big" thing was, but overall, bypassed charge, however it was bypassed, upsets the preclear and worse.

    I'm not a tech person, but I took this stuff seriously in my study of it, and I was on the TTC at Flag from 1975-1977 when I bombed out, then did tech again on the RPF from 1996-2002ish.

    The "Book of Case Remedies" written by LRH in 1964 says ARCX, PTPs and Overts (the Ruds) stop pc's from winning, and they'll blow from lack of case wins (pages 21-27 which I mentioned on this thread).

    The LIC has a lot predicaments causing upset.

    The Sea Org upper ranks life, and today ANY echelon of the Sea Org and staff life, is particularly pressure cooker to cause inescapable damned if you do, damned if you don't, situations that are enforced Catch 22 ARC breaks.

    And there's NO relief no matter which way you turn, within the predicaments, where you can't complain, and you have to fake cooperation with the environment, straight and simple cult atmosphere.

    The movement environment generates this losing proposition Catch 22 atmosphere, and punishment and threat of disconnection, loss of all your accumulated Scientology case and production status, it is just NOT a good environment and the tech in that environment isn't of help.

    I've noted the independents don't have the pressure that official Scientology has on its members, so the independents seem happier.

    I'm no supporter of the tech nor Scientology, in any camp, but I wish the people on all sides less suffering from their predicaments and official Scientology has the lion's share of enforced predicaments and Catch 22s and abusive member to member inescapable behavior.
    Chuck Beatty
    ex Sea Org (1975-2003)
    412-260-1170
    chuckbeatty77@aol.com

    "I think a lot of my father's stuff doesn't work. So I false report whenever I need to. Personally, I think my father's crazy."
    - Quentin Hubbard Class 12 Scientologist, statement to Dennis Erlich
    http://www.lermanet.com/exit/quentincoroner.htm

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  8. #307
    Patron Meritorious MostlyLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olska View Post
    "Altitude" comes not from a person considering themself "above" you (any fool can make claims to such placement, and I don't see that Bill Franks did that) but rather from you considering yourself "below" that person.

    My post was not a criticism of Bill Franks or of the information he relayed in his post. If that's what you thought, then you missed the point. Oh well.
    Oh, okay, I misunderstood then. Thanks.

    I don't consider Bill Franks above or below myself or other members. I consider him valuable for the potential historical knowledge he can share about dark times of Scn history that I hadn't myself witnessed.
    “It is simply not true that we are trapped in this universe. There is no way out of this trap for the simple reason that it wasn’t a trap in the first place. Therefore, any sign-post that purports to point to "the way out of the trap" must either be meaningless or else point the way into a trap.” ― from Letter to a Scientologist by Per-Olof Samuelsson

  9. #308
    Crusader ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckbeatty View Post
    Scientology has a ton of wealth, it's NOT gonna just fall apart.
    Scientology is already falling apart, it's is a relic of the Cold War. Today it's about as relevant as 8 Track Tapes. The only people outside of the cult interested in Scientology are those looking for a freak-show to entertain them.

    The cult's supply of fresh meat has dried up, nobody under 50 years old is interested in Hubbard's obsolete 1950s pop psychology or fighting a war against Hubbard's imaginary enemies to stop a nuclear holocaust that was supposed to happen twenty years ago. The only thing the cult can do is focus on keeping an illusion of relevance to the few remaining members.
    Yes lurkers you are not alone, everyone thinks Scientology is creepy, it's not just you

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  10. #309
    Crusader lkwdblds's Avatar
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    Default Very Well stated post!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonyMary View Post
    ChuckNorris, not everyone reading here is at the point of knowing what we have come to know. Everyone deserves to come to know for themselves the truth. Certainly you at one time were ignorant of Hubbard's ways, as I once was. Denigrating people for not knowing yet does nothing but put animosity in the way. Franks revealed something. That is why I called it a revelation. Yes, it's a confirmation for those who already know but many things we have come to know are read as revelations to those who did not know until then. The idea is to encourage those who have not seen, to look. Truth makes it possible to keep looking for more truth.

    So, yes, I too would love for more to speak out and tell their stories and it is never a comfortable thing to do but it is cathartic and it encourages others to look and speak out, too. That is the history of Scientology being exposed on the internet, something Hubbard never anticipated. The internet is our liberty tree, as Arnie Lerma once coined it. It is our tool for evolving out of the lies. Calling people stupid for not knowing and for holding onto lies for fear of the truth is kind of juvenile.
    Wow Anon Mary! I have read some very clever, humorous and inciteful comments from Chuck Norris on this thread, comments containing truths of a negative nature about Hubbard but I agree that calling people stupid for not knowing is a bit immature.

    Your idea of encouraging those who have not seen to look is extemely well stated as are your comments about the internet's role in exposing the lies of Scientology and Hubbard.

    If there are any truths in Scientology or from Hubbard, those would also be exposed on the internet but that is a subject for another post and/or another debate.
    Lakey
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  11. #310
    Silver Meritorious Patron Ladybird's Avatar
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    I am really happy to hear from Bill Franks. I find it highly amusing that even though Bill Franks (former COB before Dainty Davey) has been out of the cult for over 30 years his showing up here is drawing so much attention.

    http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/franks1.html
    "There is nothing as wild in the books of Man as will probably happen here on Earth...it will happen and be allowed to happen simply because all this is so incredible that nobody will even think of stopping it until it is far, far too late"~LRH in "A History of Man"

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