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Thread: Bill Frank's story about brainwashing (thread merge)

  1. #331
    Crusader SweetnessandLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olska View Post
    Who is Bill Franks? With no disrespect to the man intended,...

    In the world OUTSIDE scientology, he is apparently "just another guy" with about the same amount of influence on those close around him (family, friends, business associates, and community connections) as the rest of us.

    In the world INSIDE scientology and now INSIDE the "ex"scientology community, he's a guy with big, big altitude.

    It's really lovely and helpful that Bill, an "opinion leader" in scientology who is now an "opinion leader" in EX-scientology, has come out with the big revelation that:

    upsets (ARCx), not overts and withholds, are the reason people blow (leave).

    Well strike me blind and dumb! Some of us who were never, and are still not, "opinion leaders" (in either or any other group) have been pointing that out for some time now, and have been pointing out how "confession" in scientology is used not to "help" but rather to control people ... but obviously our opinions just didn't carry enough weight because hardly anyone seemed to notice.

    So. Thanks to this thread, we have all learned another great lesson! and that lesson is:

    rather than thinking things out for themselves, many people will only believe something when it is spoken or written by people with "altitude," whose opinions they value more than their own.

    All righty then.

    Now tell me again, how was it that people got sucked into and lost so much in the scam called "scientology"?
    I totally agree with your above points that I bolded, Olska. However, to me, the important point about all this is not that Bill Franks is some guy with "altitude" (I had never heard of him before he joined here), but that Ron admitted to two of his trusted lieutenants what we all (if rational) acknowledge...that it is a lie that people only leave Scientology because they have hidden crimes, O/W's, etc. People leave COS or any other group because of personal and inter-relational upsets, invalidations, ARC breaks, boundary violations, abuse, neglect, betrayals, insults, disappointments, etc..

    Yes, it's a "well duh!" for most of us, but it sure ISN'T the party line of the COS, who are holding on to the O/W hidden crimes falsity for dear life...think of the income for making all those people do series of sec checks? Ron essentially admitted the invalidity of his supposedly infallible "tech" on this...and that if it were widely known, it would invalidate and undermine people's confidence in Scientology processing, and cause a decline in income and "growth". So mum's the word about it. Yeah, that really helps people's cases, doesn't it?

    He KNEW it didn't work, knew it was a wrong indicator, and ordered it hushed it up and used anyway. Rather than do the right thing and correct the tech.

    Liar, liar, pants on fire! Money-grubbing scamming sociopathic con artist!!!

    On a serious note, how many people have really suffered because in some way they bought into this false idea and false self perception that they were Suppressive, or degraded beings, or failures, or criminals as they contemplated leaving COS. Not that the organization of COS failed them, which was the truth!!! How many suicides have there been over this...? How many broken marriages? Kids disconnected and raised away from their parents, etc. etc.

    This is a huge overt casting a very long shadow that goes directly back to RON, and should shake doubters and "true believers", who may try to rationalize it away by saying it is all a lie, into waking up more fully and sooner than if this event were not publicized.

    That's the main point, imho of why this is important data.

    For this information to be widely distributed, well I see it as a huge BIG WIN for humankind against a lying manipulative money-grubbing criminal organization masquerading as a religion known as the "Church of Scientology".
    Last edited by SweetnessandLight; 28th February 2011 at 01:21 AM.
    Yes, you can fly, but first you have to break out of that cocoon. You are capable of self rescue at all times. "Every blade of grass has its own special angel watching over it and whispering, 'grow...grow'." -The Talmud "I am still determined to be cheerful and happy, in whatever situation I may be, for I have learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our disposition, and not upon our circumstances." -Martha Washington

  2. #332

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckbeatty View Post
    Agreed. And Hubbard gives a lot of options, if you lay out all his repair lists, for what could cause upsets.

    Miscommunication, wrong indications, etc.

    The first sit down with the auditor step of the Introspection Rundown is something I experienced firsthand, and the auditor digs up from your life, moments which caused you to introvert, and indicates those moments to you.

    While on the Int RPF, and while in progress wanting to officially route out of the Sea Org, in 1997, I had the first steps of the Introspection Rundown run on me, and we ran as the very first incident, the incident when I was sitting in the Office of Special Affairs 10th floor conference room, on video camera, with Jeannie Gavigon Reynolds, Kirsten Caetano, Uwe Stuckenbrock, and Glen Stilo, with this mea culpa legal doc admission of my unseemly past deeds, concocted by Jeannie Gavigon Reynolds, for me to sign.

    It was the wrong indication predicament of my life, and I admit that running this incident as the first and MOST intense wrong indication of my life, on the Introspection Rundown, delivered by Rich Gilbert (CLass 8 CST staffer on the Int RPF) and Bruce Hines Class 9 from Snr C/S Int Office, on the RPF himself, this was Feb 1997 out at the Happy Valley RPF, well that tiny correct indication, DID undo a lot of the hurt of that ridiculously wrong indication OSA moment.

    So talking to fellow human beings by someone who understands, DOES relieve the predicaments.

    Really Hubbard's tech is unregulated talk therapy, with all sorts of angles on how to help the patient (parishioner) unravel the hurt they've lived.

    It's not something I any more recommend, but because it is now living under the guise of a religion, this psychotherapy that Scientology does DO, has to be dissected by the psychotherapy people.

    That in the US, they let Dianetics and Scientology go on and on, and on, and the fact that people DO (even I will admit, as I said in this incident when I did the first steps of the Introspection Rundown) did have some subjective relief, from Hubbard's mental therapy detailed procedures.

    I mean the whole layout of LRH's detailed technical questions, grouped in "rundowns", with rudiments before almost all sessions (a few exceptions, when the patient/parishioner is really mentally in anguish, the ruds are dispensed with, as is the case with the Introspection Rundown).

    I think Scientology's therapy procedures warrant peer research and dissection.

    Scientology has the pass from US authorities on it's religion status.

    I think the cult aspects of Scientology are mainly the administrative and member control policies that are MOST deserving of wholesale reform.

    And after that, the tech therapy of Scientology has to be peer reviewed and dissected, for it is in the tech, that the staunch followers of Scientology, witness the resurgence of the "independents" who are quite happy with their application of this therapy to one another.

    The LIC repair list, is quite an amazing repair list. When I studied it in detail on the RPF, I squirreled and self audited it secretly on myself, just reading and thinking answers to the questions, on myself, and I popped off all sorts of thoughts that unraveled all sorts of the crap predicaments I was experiencings AS a Sea Org members caught up where I was at that time.

    So the actual concepts that the tech therapy questions in Hubbard's Scientology DO provoke mental responses, and DO seem to have some beneficial effects.

    It is, I believe a more complex bigger problem, the interaction of the admin rule system, the pecking order which is itself an accumulation of Hubbard's years and years of years of policy rules, and then the normal human imperfections of the members, trapping their fellow members, due to the member's own personal flaws.

    How much of Hubbard's tech is helpful needs to be seperated out.

    The independents, I believe, are proof that the admin rules that slavishy can be used to dominate and control, are dispensed with, by the independents to their group benefit.

    But this thread, on this tech admission by LRH, to get technical, would mean read pages 21-27 of the "Book of Case Remedies" and look at what LRH did AFTER 1981-1982 when LRH "came back on the lines" and started issuing orders to the Int people about what to do with their existing scene as reported by them to LRH.

    The LRH 1982 focus went to "false purpose security checking", and the RPF has since that time to now, been overt digging, evil purpose locating, prior confusion locating, UNTIL the RPF member changed their "viewpoint", and THAT for sure is another form of mental control in itself! The Truth Rundown truly almost inevitably can result in mental therapy brainwashing. The Truth Rundown needs to be researched, we need the Truth Rundown issues in the public domain to study and expose it.

    LRH was responsible for this swing to False Purpose Rundown and Truth Rundown, which arguably as they are being applied on the RPF, are brainwashing if they don't let the RPF members OUT of the Catch 22 situation, and I lived that Catch 22 on the RPF, finally exiting putting on a face that would allow me out of that charade. The RPF is the ultimate mind dodging game, if one is upset validly with Scientology's and the Sea Org's actual faults.

    Peer reviewing would not get beyond the stage of finding out that there was no real "research", that procedures were based on "how would a cult leader do this?", that the "therapy" was not designed to be therapeutic but to trap people etc etc etc. No serious 'peer' would want to waste their time peer reviewing a cult. The fact that it is "a religion", itself means that it is generally outside the realm of mainstream psychology. The "therapy" is sold (sorry, donated for) as "spiritual counselling".

    The only place it should be "peer reviewed" is in an enquiry leading to revoking all tax exemptions, revoking religious status, and prosecution for physical and psychological abuse, fraud, extortion, blackmail, and human trafficking.

    EDIT: Perhaps you meant that anyway? Peer reviewing scientology as a CULT and not as a therapy?
    (I just read your post about Prof Kent).

  3. #333
    Crusader lkwdblds's Avatar
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    Default Good point Chuck, but....

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn View Post
    An organization like Scientology can not survive on offspring alone, it's dysfunctional management and ever increasing overhead will bury it. A con game like Scientology needs a steady stream of new cards to play or it folds. Scientology can not survive in an open society, it will continue to die a slow death just as all of the other scams that promised unobtainable results. For some reason Scientology had a better run than most probably because of the timing, if anything that is about the only thing of value it has to offer, a case study in why it managed to last as long as it did.
    Good points Chuck but have you considered how much a steady stream of recruits from offspring can prolong the life of an organization. Sea Org labor is very close to slave labor as far as wages and maintenance. RPF labor is even cheaper.

    Take a Sea Org member, supposedly earning $50 a week. Probably, due to low income weeks, etc. they earn about $30 a week, their food allotment could be another $35 a week and perhaps berthing costs are $35 a week for a total of $100 a week and this is for an 80 to 100 hour week. There is no medical care to speak of, no taxes are paid on this, no insurance and no retirement set asides.

    For a minimum wage worker, I don't know the actual rate, but about $8 an hour, they would earn about $320 a week for the first 40 hours and then lets say time and a half for the next 40 hours or about $480 a week. There is $800 a week just in payroll plus federal and state taxes, medical coverage, and workers comp and liablity insurance. An 80 hour a week employee at minimum wage would cost and emplyer about $1,200 a week as opposed to approximately $100 a week for an S. O. member.

    Just think how much easier it is for an organization to survive paying only 1/12th (or about 8%) the going rate of a normal employer. I AM SURE THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS THAT SCN IS LASTING LONGER THAN YOU WOULD EXPECT. THE OTHER BIG REASON IS THAT SO MANY FAMOUS AND WEALTHY CELEBRITIES ARE INVOLVED. The big celebs make huge donations and they also recruit other wealthy people. This also contributes the the organization's longevity.
    Lakey
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you've earned but not greed to want to take someone else's money."
    -Thomas Sowell

  4. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerB View Post
    What a wonderful thread this is.

    In looking over it, all I see, apart from some of the earlier "can this be true, real? Is this really Bill Franks?" etc ., and a little DOX Plox, what I see is honest helpful postings.

    This really is what ESMB is and ought exemplify . . . honest communication and exchange of truth such that folks are helped and healed.

    And, to be blunt, I can't help thinking that the recent clean-up and freeing from some of our more prolific negative-put-down artists might just have something to do with the arrival of these valuable new members

    Certainly this thread is free from the destructive diversions we've so often seen in the past.

    Nice!

    RogerB
    Put down artists who can't reply being put down?

  5. #335

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    Being a scientologist, clam, FZer, Indie, etc. etc. is of course the ultimate self put-down.

  6. #336

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    Quote Originally Posted by olska View Post
    Who is Bill Franks? With no disrespect to the man intended,...

    In the world OUTSIDE scientology, he is apparently "just another guy" with about the same amount of influence on those close around him (family, friends, business associates, and community connections) as the rest of us.

    In the world INSIDE scientology and now INSIDE the "ex"scientology community, he's a guy with big, big altitude.

    It's really lovely and helpful that Bill, an "opinion leader" in scientology who is now an "opinion leader" in EX-scientology, has come out with the big revelation that:

    upsets (ARCx), not overts and withholds, are the reason people blow (leave).

    Well strike me blind and dumb! Some of us who were never, and are still not, "opinion leaders" (in either or any other group) have been pointing that out for some time now, and have been pointing out how "confession" in scientology is used not to "help" but rather to control people ... but obviously our opinions just didn't carry enough weight because hardly anyone seemed to notice.

    So. Thanks to this thread, we have all learned another great lesson! and that lesson is:

    rather than thinking things out for themselves, many people will only believe something when it is spoken or written by people with "altitude," whose opinions they value more than their own.

    All righty then.

    Now tell me again, how was it that people got sucked into and lost so much in the scam called "scientology"?
    Good point.

  7. #337
    Crusader ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkwdblds View Post
    Good points Chuck but have you considered how much a steady stream of recruits from offspring can prolong the life of an organization. Sea Org labor is very close to slave labor as far as wages and maintenance. RPF labor is even cheaper.

    Take a Sea Org member, supposedly earning $50 a week. Probably, due to low income weeks, etc. they earn about $30 a week, their food allotment could be another $35 a week and perhaps berthing costs are $35 a week for a total of $100 a week and this is for an 80 to 100 hour week. There is no medical care to speak of, no taxes are paid on this, no insurance and no retirement set asides.

    For a minimum wage worker, I don't know the actual rate, but about $8 an hour, they would earn about $320 a week for the first 40 hours and then lets say time and a half for the next 40 hours or about $480 a week. There is $800 a week just in payroll plus federal and state taxes, medical coverage, and workers comp and liablity insurance. An 80 hour a week employee at minimum wage would cost and emplyer about $1,200 a week as opposed to approximately $100 a week for an S. O. member.

    Just think how much easier it is for an organization to survive paying only 1/12th (or about 8%) the going rate of a normal employer. I AM SURE THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS THAT SCN IS LASTING LONGER THAN YOU WOULD EXPECT. THE OTHER BIG REASON IS THAT SO MANY FAMOUS AND WEALTHY CELEBRITIES ARE INVOLVED. The big celebs make huge donations and they also recruit other wealthy people. This also contributes the the organization's longevity.
    Lakey
    Even at 8% of normal wages, how much of that labor goes to keeping up the illusion, how much of it goes to satisfying the paranoia of upper management, and how much of it actually goes to generating income?

    I don't foresee Scientology suddenly dying off they have too many assets for that, but it will slowly wither away.

    The damage has been done, now that Scientology has been fully exposed nobody in the media is willing to look the other way anymore or make excuses for it to satisfy it's handful of past-their-prime celebrities.
    Yes lurkers you are not alone, everyone thinks Scientology is creepy, it's not just you

    http://www.mediacurves.com/Religion/...logy/Index.cfm

  8. #338
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    AnonyMary and Ladybird, I so appreciate and like your posts here. Thank you.

    Chuck Norris, I have to wonder why you spend time here if you believe that the only people interested in Scn. are looking for a freak show? You seem to be a regular poster here. Reminiscing about any good times we had in the "church" back in the day is at least slightly more theta inducing than bashing people who don't yet have your level of "knowledge" about the "truth". That is the kind of rant that would keep myself, and I'm sure others, away from this blog. You have a perfect right to say whatever you want but I still have to wonder, in light of your comments, why you come here and post.
    Please feel free to enlighten me. I don't get it.
    Marcy Pearlman Sorensen

  9. #339
    Crusader lkwdblds's Avatar
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    Default Hi Rae!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rae View Post
    I have not posted here in a long time but feel I must say something now.

    Bill, I want to thank you for revealing this "small" piece of the puzzle. As Feral mentioned early on in this thread, what we experienced, when on OTVll, and for me OTVlll also, in the never ending search for all those "O/Ws" we just had to have, those introverting, constant sec checks, the constant dwelling on "What have I done" What am I withholding", it "must be me", "has to be me", resulted in nothing but introversion and more introversion. All the "looking for something that isn't there", making "something out of nothing" to have something to come up with...man. I'd never wish anyone to go through that. Ever. Unsafe to even bring up perhaps having an "ARCX" about something or with someone, however valid.

    What you've revealed to us applies not to just wanting to or accomplishing leaving Scientology, but what about desperately wanting to "blow" a session that was grinding beyond and beyond any reason, no answer accepted, finding yourself losing your sanity? The same grinding question over and over looking for the "what have I done?" "I must have done something"

    I've gone from astonishment, to being pissed off, to being relieved, to being anxious, to being just about all ranges of emotions. I guess, even after spending the last two years repairing myself and stripping off all the cult indoctrination, regaining my own identity, stripping off the lies, I still gave credit to, as I now realized, to much of the "tech" of O/W and "blowing". Still wondered if there wasn't something I wasn't being truthful with myself about or if others weren't being truthful with themselves about. Man, what a mind screw.

    This is, in my opinion, the hugest implication of deception across the boards, bar none, in all the Scientology false tech exposures.

    Thanks again,
    Rae
    Hi Rae - Nice to run into you again! Its been a full two years since I first arrived at ESMB and compared notes with you on our experiences under Yvonne at CCLA in the early 70's. I still have my mental picture of you holding up the weekly stat graphs for each division, smiling, having auburn fairly long wavy hair and wearing a white blouse and a dark skirt.

    It looks like you have undergone some major changes in the last two years based on the contents of your above post. Well done on the gains which you have made.

    Lakey aka Gary
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you've earned but not greed to want to take someone else's money."
    -Thomas Sowell

  10. #340
    Crusader ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    AnonyMary and Ladybird, I so appreciate and like your posts here. Thank you.

    Chuck Norris, I have to wonder why you spend time here if you believe that the only people interested in Scn. are looking for a freak show? You seem to be a regular poster here. Reminiscing about any good times we had in the "church" back in the day is at least slightly more theta inducing than bashing people who don't yet have your level of "knowledge" about the "truth". That is the kind of rant that would keep myself, and I'm sure others, away from this blog. You have a perfect right to say whatever you want but I still have to wonder, in light of your comments, why you come here and post.
    Please feel free to enlighten me. I don't get it.
    Marcy Pearlman Sorensen
    I come here to keep lurkers away from Hubbard's mind fuck, I'm not interested what active Scientologists think, not in the slightest, their opinion is of no value to me, and I have little respect for them since they are actively funding a well documented abusive cult. If they aren't interested in the truth, they can easily register a screen name on this board and place me on their ignore list.
    Yes lurkers you are not alone, everyone thinks Scientology is creepy, it's not just you

    http://www.mediacurves.com/Religion/...logy/Index.cfm

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