Why I Support Marty by Mark Bunker

[TrevAnon]

I must say I applaud Marty for letting through my own and others comments being more or less critic against the church policies.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/201...comment-137999 and below (had to simplify the layout and leave out a few things to be able to present it well here):

Michael | July 27, 2011 at 5:45 am | Reply

I do not share the openhearted welcome that Mark Bunker and his documentary is receiving here although I agree with the factual data (and know first-hand that it is true) and with the idea that we welcome all viewpoints. I welcome all viewpoints but there is still the concept of the optimal solution and the greatest good. Measured against those criteria Bunkers’ work is a flunk and he can count me out as his reader in the future. The data he is presenting in this documentary is true and it is terrible and must stop but the data is lopsided as one hugely important point is totally omitted: the workability of the Tech. The documentary simply discredits Scientology further. There is no concern for the individual people out there who could improve their lives with Scientology, for now using Independent auditors and courses. There is no mention of the enormous benefit of application of Scientology if it is properly used. Bunkers just wants to throw the baby with dirty water. What solution does he suggest? No solution. Just “lets kill Scientology”. I just attested Clear recently. I love it! Just because everybody can have their viewpoints it doesn’t mean I want to see them all or agree with anybody’s hidden agenda.

TrevAnon | July 27, 2011 at 1:46 pm | Reply
May I ask, have you seen anything of the documentary already besides the clips Bunkers has shown us on his own site or on YouTube?

Cat Daddy | July 27, 2011 at 3:46 pm | Reply
It is not Bunkers job to prove anything works. That task my friend is yours.

atcause | July 27, 2011 at 11:44 pm | Reply
It was proven many years ago that auditing, Dianetics & Scientology is true and works.

Mr. Fancy | July 28, 2011 at 5:21 am | Reply
For you atcause, perhaps. For the scientific community, it has not.

I respectfully suggest that you, and other Scientologists, start looking into what constitutes scientific proof, including repeatable results by independent parties. If something is truly there, then this should not be an insurmountable task.

But the work has *not* been done.

TrevAnon | July 28, 2011 at 6:40 am | Reply
Can you give as a link to an article in a scientific journal?

Cat Daddy | July 28, 2011 at 6:50 am | Reply
Lead by example, be the proof of it yourself. People onley tend to believe it when they SEE it.

Also posted here: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threa...3#post-1831080

LOL @valkov comments that were inserted after I made this post

[Captain Koolaid]

This KR by James Randi on loaded language - is a complete waste of time and should not be in Marks otherwise fine KR film. The reason is the point he is making, that Hubbard is using a specialized language is a sign of a cult is completely off the mark.

Here - read this - it sounds just like cult speak.

"More ways to skin a cat. I gave you a simple one for these circumstances.
For instance:
1) You could use a section plane > Create Group from Slice > explode this group in proper geometrical context.
2) SU8-pro has extra 'Solid' tools to perform [Outer Shell / Intersect / Union / ISubtract / Trim / and Split] operations on two solid groups or components.
3) There are plugins that may help (boolean plugin)."

It is from an online help forum on a 3D drawing program called Sketchup. I guess you could call Sketchup users a cult, but any field of study has it's own language.

So Mark, please cut this guy out - it lessens your argument.

Mimsey

I don't see anything wrong with it, the Scientology lingo is definitely used to indoctrinate. First of all: You can't compare Hubbardian verbal concoctions with special terms used in some particular field. Secondly, Hubbard changed the meaning of many regular terms to change the thought processes of Scientologists: Critical thought, individuation, reasonable. Language does indeed provide a very clear hint that some group is in fact a cult.

[Student of Trinity]

Technical disciplines use specialized language for specialized concepts, for which no convenient terminology exists within ordinary speech. Scientology uses some specialized language for its own specialized concepts, but it also uses a lot of special jargon for everyday concepts. That's the point. Scientologists end up describing perfectly ordinary activities using Scientology's esoteric vocabulary, to the point where it seems they can hardly use a restroom without reaffirming the genius of L. Ron Hubbard.

[Smilla]

Duckspeak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ords#Duckspeak

[Thrak]

Technical disciplines use specialized language for specialized concepts, for which no convenient terminology exists within ordinary speech. Scientology uses some specialized language for its own specialized concepts, but it also uses a lot of special jargon for everyday concepts. That's the point. Scientologists end up describing perfectly ordinary activities using Scientology's esoteric vocabulary, to the point where it seems they can hardly use a restroom without reaffirming the genius of L. Ron Hubbard.

That's very true, but more of a point of amusement or bewilderment than something somebody should be alarmed about which is why I agreed with Mimsey. I was in Alabama last year and to hear people there greet each other with "Roll Tide" was also bizarre and baffling. But the only conclusion you can come up with is that people do stupid stuff.

[Mick Wenlock]

This KR by James Randi on loaded language - is a complete waste of time and should not be in Marks otherwise fine KR film. The reason is the point he is making, that Hubbard is using a specialized language is a sign of a cult is completely off the mark.

Here - read this - it sounds just like cult speak.

"More ways to skin a cat. I gave you a simple one for these circumstances.
For instance:
1) You could use a section plane > Create Group from Slice > explode this group in proper geometrical context.
2) SU8-pro has extra 'Solid' tools to perform [Outer Shell / Intersect / Union / ISubtract / Trim / and Split] operations on two solid groups or components.
3) There are plugins that may help (boolean plugin)."

It is from an online help forum on a 3D drawing program called Sketchup. I guess you could call Sketchup users a cult, but any field of study has it's own language.

So Mark, please cut this guy out - it lessens your argument.

Mimsey

You need to read moar Mimsey.

Cultic language is designed to cut people off from their surroundings it all part of the milieu control that cults exercise to keep the flock from straying.

A specialized jargon to enable professionals is one thing - and inevitable. But Redefining common words, phrases into concepts that are foreign but related, minting new words and so on - yes, a vital part of cult control and very much should be in the movie

[Smilla]

You need to read moar Mimsey.

Cultic language is designed to cut people off from their surroundings it all part of the milieu control that cults exercise to keep the flock from straying.

A specialized jargon to enable professionals is one thing - and inevitable. But Redefining common words, phrases into concepts that are foreign but related, minting new words and so on - yes, a vital part of cult control and very much should be in the movie

Like re-defining love as ARC, to remove it from the consciousness of the member. As we know, ARC is not love, but something entirely different...

"By 2050—earlier, probably—all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron—they'll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually contradictory of what they used to be. Even the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."

-Orwell, 1984.

[Thrak]

You need to read moar Mimsey.

Cultic language is designed to cut people off from their surroundings it all part of the milieu control that cults exercise to keep the flock from straying.

A specialized jargon to enable professionals is one thing - and inevitable. But Redefining common words, phrases into concepts that are foreign but related, minting new words and so on - yes, a vital part of cult control and very much should be in the movie

I'm just looking at this from an editorial aspect Mick. It should be included IF you can prove that "Cultic language is designed to cut people off from their surroundings it all part of the milieu control that cults exercise to keep the flock from straying." You can't assume people know that or just state it as fact.

You would have to start with establishing that point based on a lot of precedents as opposed to opinions, and then it would make sense to give examples of looney Scio-Speak.

But still I watch that guy and can only come away with "look scientology is weird they use funny words". Just doesn't hold much water to me.

[Smilla]

SNIP:

But still I watch that guy and can only come away with "look scientology is weird they use funny words". Just doesn't hold much water to me.

I agree that the guy in the video didn't make a very convincing case, but the use of an altered language, and neologisms to manipulate people's thinking is real and quite well researched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_exposure_effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasion

[GoNuclear]

And finally, here is another reason to support Mark Bunker ... you are a pair of jockey shorts in a plus size.

Pete