A question for Terril.

[Terril park]

And although the number of people we can prove got out because of MR's actions would be probably much lower than in reality, you just can't prove it the way you did. It was not smart and you, trying to be an advertisement of scientology in free zone, are achieving quite the opposite.

All I'm doing is answering someone's question!!

I'd be far happier to say all these people coming out of CO$
are doing so because of my promotional FZ actions, but that is not the case.

Determining what persuaded people to leave CO$ to continue doing Scn outside COS is not promotional actions ITS ANSWERING SOMONE'S
QUESTION WHO DIRECTED A WHOLE THREAD TO MARTY'S EFFECTS ON THIS!!

I agree with freethinker.
Sorry to be rude, but Terril's text is one of the worst BS I've ever read. The assumption that if you didn't know a person on a list from FZ before, then he must have got out because of Marty's actions is very uncertain to say the least.

Thats a good point, in theory.

This was from the blog of " Thoughtful" one of Marty's compadres,
and IIRC is Steve Hall. His blog links to much action of Marty's including
his blog and Videos appearing in the St Pete's times and more.

Further note that it is a list of INDEPENDENTS!

This term has only been resurrected in recent times by Marty, who
has also at times called Freezoners Squirrels.

The above indicates that these are people who mostly came out with
some inspiration from Marty and/or his friends blogs and websites.

No I can't specify that all those on the list left CO$ because of
Marty's actions. Also re someone elses comments people in COS have had long suppressed needs, and reasons to leave CO$. Coming out
openly has been occurring quite regularly on Marty's Blog.

Now some background of my activity. I've been promoting the FZ for 11 years plus, and connecting people in the FZ up. I probably know more people in the FZ who post in english than anyone else, and I know many who don't regularly post in english.

This is around 8 years before ESMB was formed, around 9 years before Marty and Anon came on the net.

My own personal CF probably has around 4000 or so, and I kept this monitored for many years, though I no longer do so.

The 216 people I referenced have not previously surfaced in the FZ,
to the best of my knowledge.

Did anon get them to practice Scn outside COS? perhaps helped, but don't think many are active on WWP. Did ESMB? Yes, and quite a few from ESMB came to FZ forums or asked for connection to techies.

That leaves perhaps 170 - 190 who came to practice tech outside CO$ by other paths than WWP, ESMB, and the FZ.

I shall soon look at one of the busier recent threads on Marty's blog
and give details of how many posters were previously FZers and who were not.

Incidentally Tory has posted similar comments to mine re Marty's effects on getting people out of CO$.

[Captain Koolaid]

DB, I believe Marty is a natural leader and he has also been given the leadership role because of who and what he was, by people who perceive that as a positive thing that they want in their lives.
His leadership was quite apparent when he proclaimed that anonymous was aiding McSavage and then in another post he claimed they were allies. Both times the followers were rah-rahing in agreement.

He is a leader in that he has his followers going exactly where he wants them to go and when. There is no way I could say that he is doing his folowers bidding.

I am just not saying what type of leader he is.

I would imagine the Pied Piper was also a good, charismatic leader.

A natural leader does not need rah-rahing sheep, he convinces people with intelligence, arguments, charisma etc. I can't picture Rathbun leading a bunch of wogs who think they can question his decisions and ideas and won't be censored. If I remember correctly his "career" in the wog world didn't last very long.

[Mark A. Baker]

... I'm just sick of the fucking ad homs and also I know them to be bullshit and sour grapes.

No, you are sick of the incessant need to disrespect others with insults. Intentionally insulting behavior isn't the same thing as argumenta ad hominem.


Mark A. Baker

[anonomog]

A natural leader does not need rah-rahing sheep, he convinces people with intelligence, arguments, charisma etc. I can't picture Rathbun leading a bunch of wogs who think they can question his decisions and ideas and won't be censored. If I remember correctly his "career" in the wog world didn't last very long.

I never said he needs rah-rahing sheep. He has acquired them. He may indeed need them. Perhaps his psychiatrist could tell you..oh wai-

Why would he want to lead wogs? He has led, and been trained to lead, homo novis all his adult life, you want him to lower himself?

Joking aside, he is a leader, what kind of leader is another matter. Calling someone a leader doesn't automatically qualify, or disqualify, that someone as being moral, ethical (in the wog sense), sane or logical.

I would say that if his wog career stalled it would be because he was as foreign to his coworkers as they were to him and he couldn't or wouldn't learn wog enough to bridge the gap.

[AnonKat]

To think otherwise is a sign of being malinformed. Even most Anons will admit he does that.

Terril, you have variously stated that: "Marty is doing a marvelous job of getting many/very many people out of the Church." In fact, you trot this out quite frequently.

Does this have any basis in reality, or is it just wishful thinking and PR on your part?

Can you put forward any concrete information that shows he has directly caused "many/very many" to leave the Church?

I doubt that you can.

[Mark A. Baker]

... I hope if I say that you won't automatically have to refute that MR actually has a *quality*.

You forget, Kev. Guys like MR & LRH must be 'completely evil' and therefore can't have any 'positives' about them.

No absolutes like absolute hatred.


Mark A. Baker

[AnonKat]

You forget, Kev. Guys like MR & LRH must be 'completely evil' and therefore can't have any 'positives' about them.

No absolutes like absolute hatred.


Mark A. Baker

oh my that sounds so extremist

[Mark A. Baker]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=2]Terril has declared himself to have 'skin as thick as an elephants', so I don't think he is going to be wounded by a bit of the 'rough and tumble' of debate. ...

It's not debate. What is being promulgated isn't anything even remotely similar to debate.

Debate involves an exchange about the relative merits of differing ideas. Passionate recriminations have no part to play in debate.


Mark A. Baker

[AnonKat]

I have to make an exeption on my policy on treathing exes on their own forum with gloves.

WHY THE FUCK DON'T YOU GO AND READ HIS ENTIRE BLOG FROM START TO FINISCH !

yours sincerely, Cornelius Antonius Martens

Terril, you have variously stated that: "Marty is doing a marvelous job of getting many/very many people out of the Church." In fact, you trot this out quite frequently.

Does this have any basis in reality, or is it just wishful thinking and PR on your part?

Can you put forward any concrete information that shows he has directly caused "many/very many" to leave the Church?

I doubt that you can.

[AnonKat]

Spell out what reincriminations that might be please with pudding on top.

It's not debate. What is being promulgated isn't anything even remotely similar to debate.

Debate involves an exchange about the relative merits of differing ideas. Passionate recriminations have no part to play in debate.


Mark A. Baker