Wearing our bodies out

[Lurker5]

The body wears out. If one does not take care of it, it wears out sooner. One's DNA is the foundation. One's environment, nourishment, maintenance - and ability to relieve stress and relax, is the basis of bodily health.

Sleep is an individual thing, and different people need differing amounts. If you are dreaming, even if you do not remember the dreams, you are getting enough.

Personally, I am of the opinion that introverted people need more sleep. Extroverts do not want to internally contemplate or introspect on anything, and will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid it. Nothing wrong with that, just differing personality types. And that is just my opinion. We need both types, internally and externally directed people.

Also, people with bipolar disorder have manic periods of no sleep. This is a serious brain disorder. Sometimes I wonder if lrh wasn't bipolar. And a sociopath. Bad combination. Very bad. And he forced all his shit on his followers - or else.

Yes, all cults deprive followers of sleep. It breaks down not only the body, but short cirucits the brain, and logical clear thinking - and judgement - and weakens the 'will' of the individual, opens a person to influence and manipulation, control.
Sleep deprived people are vulnerable.

Tubbard did not want anyone 'dreaming', asleep or awake. Dreamers are creative, and rebelious, and follow their own tune . . . He nipped it in the bud. Cult leaders do that.

Unfortunately all those sleep deprived, malnourished, un-maintenanced bodies wear out, with no sleep, bad food, extreme and unrelenting stress, no internal release through dreaming, asleep or awake, no medical or dental care, and so off-loading came into being.

Gees, just writing this stuff makes me want to . Sheesh. Such utter and blatant abuse of human beings.

BTW, I love dreaming, asleep or awake . I LOVE IT ! My dreams tell me so much . . . . And I listen. Just my 2 cents.

[DagwoodGum]

This is yet another example of the Hubtard's double talk. If one should be able to optimally operate on just a few hours’ sleep, why then is one considered un-session able when one has not had a good night’s sleep? He talked out of both ends...

[Voltaire's Child]

Good point!!

[Gadfly]

This is yet another example of the Hubtard's double talk. If one should be able to optimally operate on just a few hours’ sleep, why then is one considered un-session able when one has not had a good night’s sleep? He talked out of both ends...

"Talking out of both ends" is something that was SOP for Hubbard. That is why there are so many contradictions in the subject and practices. That is why Hoaxter mentions the Hubbard Law of Commotion (where for any one thing Hubbard says, there is usually an equal and opposite thing).

There are MANY MANY contradictions in Scientology. I have spelled out MANY of these in the past, and I won't now do it again (due to lack of time).

[Voltaire's Child]

I think it just got very self serving. Of course the philosophy of Scn is about mind over matter. Ok, that's nice. Talk about mind over matter, we can do this, we can do that- yippee. I'm for it.

But I think most of us would agree that we saw this used on people and against people to get a lot of work and money out of 'em.

Remember what Jesus said about the Sabbath being for man, not man for the Sabbath. I think that the underlying point pertains to organized religion, as well. It's supposed to be for the people. The congregants. The parishioners. The cult members. Whatever you want to call them.

Instead, who was it for? Did we come out of there with warm fuzzies? Did we receive gratitude?

I have met a few people who said, ok, I did it a while, it was nice, then I left. It's not for me. Those are considered panty waist dilettantes but whatever. But most people who leave the cult are like "aaaargh! OMG! It was awful and they told me I couldn't see my friend anymore and I joined staff and they didn't feed me and they regged me and they....etc." And these are far from rare. These are the norm. Most exes didn't drift away. They usually left in disgust and often in tears. The aftermath has been devastating for many.

[DagwoodGum]

I think it just got very self serving. Of course the philosophy of Scn is about mind over matter. Ok, that's nice. Talk about mind over matter, we can do this, we can do that- yippee. I'm for it.

But I think most of us would agree that we saw this used on people and against people to get a lot of work and money out of 'em.

Remember what Jesus said about the Sabbath being for man, not man for the Sabbath. I think that the underlying point pertains to organized religion, as well. It's supposed to be for the people. The congregants. The parishioners. The cult members. Whatever you want to call them.

Instead, who was it for? Did we come out of there with warm fuzzies? Did we receive gratitude?

I have met a few people who said, ok, I did it a while, it was nice, then I left. It's not for me. Those are considered panty waist dilettantes but whatever. But most people who leave the cult are like "aaaargh! OMG! It was awful and they told me I couldn't see my friend anymore and I joined staff and they didn't feed me and they regged me and they....etc." And these are far from rare. These are the norm. Most exes didn't drift away. They usually left in disgust and often in tears. The aftermath has been devastating for many.

"Of course the philosophy of Scn is about mind over matter." That may be because to Hubtard your mind didn't matter.

[smartone]

The body wears out. If one does not take care of it, it wears out sooner. One's DNA is the foundation. One's environment, nourishment, maintenance - and ability to relieve stress and relax, is the basis of bodily health.

Sleep is an individual thing, and different people need differing amounts. If you are dreaming, even if you do not remember the dreams, you are getting enough.

Personally, I am of the opinion that introverted people need more sleep. Extroverts do not want to internally contemplate or introspect on anything, and will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid it. Nothing wrong with that, just differing personality types. And that is just my opinion. We need both types, internally and externally directed people.

Also, people with bipolar disorder have manic periods of no sleep. This is a serious brain disorder. Sometimes I wonder if lrh wasn't bipolar. And a sociopath. Bad combination. Very bad. And he forced all his shit on his followers - or else.

Yes, all cults deprive followers of sleep. It breaks down not only the body, but short cirucits the brain, and logical clear thinking - and judgement - and weakens the 'will' of the individual, opens a person to influence and manipulation, control.
Sleep deprived people are vulnerable.

Tubbard did not want anyone 'dreaming', asleep or awake. Dreamers are creative, and rebelious, and follow their own tune . . . He nipped it in the bud. Cult leaders do that.

Unfortunately all those sleep deprived, malnourished, un-maintenanced bodies wear out, with no sleep, bad food, extreme and unrelenting stress, no internal release through dreaming, asleep or awake, no medical or dental care, and so off-loading came into being.

Gees, just writing this stuff makes me want to . Sheesh. Such utter and blatant abuse of human beings.

BTW, I love dreaming, asleep or awake . I LOVE IT ! My dreams tell me so much . . . . And I listen. Just my 2 cents.

This is so true, especially about looking after oneself. If you don't use it, you lose it. A brisk walk will lubricate the joints. I'm 64 and exercise by walking 4 miles every day. Dancing is very good too.

I can't imagine what it must be like to live with exorbitant continual stress and fear. OMG that has to rip a person to bits spiritually and physically.

[GoNuclear]

Remember the song by Paul Simon "Run that Body Down"? Only reason I didn't title the thread thus is that I didn't want anyone to think I was referring to a Scn rundown.

I'm thinking of the various ways in which CofS and Hubbard urged members to wear themselves out physically. Of course, staff are worked into the ground and often go with little sleep or nutrition or medical care. This is widely known. Many of you have experienced that.

But I also recall listening to Hubbard tapes where he opined that it was higher toned to need less sleep, to get your necessity level up and so on. To not cave in to the demands of the body. Now, I dunno about you guys, but as an impressionable young staff member - and even later- I was left with the impression that needing or even wanting more than a few hours of sleep was "low toned". That if I were truly OT, I'd be dynamic and would not need much.

There were stories of Hubbard accomplishing incredible amounts of work- like more than a regular human being could be expected to accomplish. Those stories often came to us via tales from admiring old time Scn'ists who were still really into it. So, to put it nicely, they were definitely seeing Hubbard with the eyes of love, and not so much a critical view. Hey, that's a great idea and I tend to think there are people who are well above the range of "Normal" or "average". Whether or not LRH was one of them, I will never know for sure, though.

But I do know that this was used to get more work out of people. If public, more time on course. No reason you can't be there 9 (if Foundation public) course periods a week instead of 4 and get your housework done, your job, your yard work, your 2d time, etc. No reason you can't just give birth and be at work later that day. No reason you can't get by on a couple hours of sleep or even just skip sleep if stats are down.

I remember looking for or seizing upon corroboration from others that Hubbard was right. Like I remember reading that Aristotle Onassis cut his amount of sleep way back and credited that as part of his success. And I was like "AHA!! He knew! It's a universal truth."

But, whether or not you believe in Scn or new age stuff or whether you don't, fact is, we are in bodies. Bodies run on fuel. Bodies are not designed to run all day, all night then all day and all night again. The fact that, say, an intern or resident MD has to do stuff like that does not justify the cultic mindset. Anyone who does ok on that little sleep and decent fuel is doing so despite those things. Not because of them.

Scn holds that PTS people make mistakes. It doesn't really say that those are the only people who ever make any mistakes, but I think the implication is there and I do think it gets inflicted on staff and other Scn'ists in the cult. So someone hasn't had enough sleep or other things he physically needs and he screws up? Ok, he's PTS. It's not that he didn't get enough rest and that he's in lousy physical shape because, of course, the cult told him to run himself down working - Hubbard told him to do so- and the cult is never wrong, Hubbard's never wrong, it's always the individual's fault. He's gotta be PTS. And he should be KRd and punished for it.

I think that's pretty much how it goes. Of course that's cultic.

We are all getting older. People who get older generally have physical things to take care of. But I wonder how many health issues a lot of exes have that perhaps they either would not have had or would have had to a lesser extent were it not for past cult involvement?

Oh, and it's not true that needing lots of sleep is low toned. I used to work with a guy who was a total nut and he slept about 2 hours a night. I have a couple good friends who have a lot of physical issues that they have to deal with. These are delightful, insightful, observant, smart, friendly awesome people. Not a damn thing wrong with their "Tone scale position" or personality or whatever you want to call any of it.

I spent years beating myself up for liking my sleep, feeling better if I ate more veggies and less crap than not. (Yes, I know LRH wrote "Pep" but I know he also glorified just running yourself down in service of the cult.) It took a long time to disabuse me of these ideas. But it's worse for some others. Some people were in the SO or other places on staff a very long time and are probably in rough physical shape because of it. Some may've recovered, but I'm betting that some did not.

Running people for long hours on low sleep is "MAKING BIG MONEY IN THE CULT BUSINESS" 101. The Moonies do that, they even have some doctrine about sleep demons or some such horseshit. Other cults do business that way as well.

Meanwhile, bodies can be high maintenence or low maintenence. A fat, out of shape body will tend to require more sleep. A super athletic body for competition in sports requiring a lot of strength ... weight lifting, power lifting, body building, or extreme speed are high maintenence as well ... higher sleep requirements and time spent working out. A body with a low percentage of body fat, trained via running a few miles daily and a workout that stresses handling your own body weight, flexibility, and other essentials will tend to be the lowest maintenence as far as workout time and sleep, provided decent nutrition. This is the kind of body good for martial arts, yoga, or just getting a lot of work done. Of course, the average staff Scientologist is on the nuclear noodle diet with an occaisional gas station hotdog on a stale bun with mustard and relish thrown in.

Pete

[Voltaire's Child]

Good points, one and all.

It's a slavery thing. If you read about slavery, past or present- and in this I include gulags and concentration camps- you'll see that every extra morsel is begrudged. The slaveholders want to get lots of work out of the slaves, yet they are unwilling to provide good fuel and good living conditions. This is contradictory but, in Scn parlance, I would see that as a "Dramatization". It's all aberrated. Or for us wogs, it's irrational. It's not even that much of a cold business decision because if it were, they'd be looking at maximizing production and if they did that, then the slaves would have better nutrition and rest.

[Lermanet_com]

Chronic high stress (of any kind) raises levels of cortisol in the brain. Cortisol dissolves neural connections.

Anything that can make a person's memory AND intellect disappear assists brainwashing.

Clearing a person of his memory produces a person who now has no choices other than those he has been programmed with or, for example, has clay-demo'd.(note1)

AND

"...the hypnotized person can transcend normal limits of volitional control.
...he behaves without experience of will or intention, without self-conciousness, and without memory which under the circumstances one would expect, and
...these changes in behavior occur merely because the hypnotist says so" R. L. White quoted by Andrew Salter in Conditioned Reflex Therapy LINK

Note: (last word of this sentence was chosen to elicit response from any true believers reading this post, non true believers will know it is a metaphor)

Arnie Lerma

A sinister motive for "ron's" advices to ignore the body might be that "dead men can't sue"