Cannot reach escape velocity

[Ogsonofgroo]

Oh thanks for the heads up on the link, it has gone through some changes and I've had to amend it a few times, so its good of people to point that out, I'll fix it asap.

Me? I'll be hitting the 'Mercan highway speed limit next week @ 55, but I feel much younger mostly

As to the keeping, or trying to, of the 'good parts' of Hubbard's stuff, well, I for one can not see this as a positive thing, mainly because it keeps a person tied into it in a subtle way.
Forgive me if I Godwina bit here, but its like saying to yourself 'Gee, the Nazis had such snazzy uniforms, I like dressing nicely, so maybe its not all bad, or maybe its okay if I just keep that part (swaztikas and all), and shiney boots, I like shiney boots......' know what I mean?
It is not so much that there are not some good parts, but rather that it all ties in, through the mind, actions and heart of what was created, it becomes very hard to seperate because it was actually designed to be thus. In other words, from my own point of view, a person can unknowingly keep getting drawn deeper/back by association with even the slightest of thoughts because the mindfuck was created as a whole mind-replacement thingie, it is full of back-doors and mind games, re-occuring cognitions, and false highs that tend to give one hope that it is 'real'. The bits and pieces that are acceptable are just shrapnel, but the scrapnel's toxic and possibly hides a further more hidious weapon. (hey, its how I think things out, : )
To my view the only way to shake it off is to shun the whole ball-of-wax. If you can take yourself back to the start and, start over, doesn't mean totally strip yourself bare, but do some mental house-cleaning with some common sense and gained knowledge.
Learn something real everyday, never stop your brain from gaining, never stop your spirit (or whatever you chose to call your inner being) from growing, never stop your heart from loving and caring. We may not get all the answers seeked in one fell swoop, but accept that that may be.

Ogs

Edit, had to cut this short due to system updates that require a re-start. If I get inspired agin I'll add to this thread, but I am being slightly redundant aqnyhow

[Crashed Alien]

Hi Ogs,
Thanks for the post – Your view is really interesting, and I have been through this post quite a lot as it really got me thinking.

So, I have a few points of my own that I’s like to share.

It is a bit epic, but I hope you might read it anyway...

Oh thanks for the heads up on the link, it has gone through some changes and I've had to amend it a few times, so its good of people to point that out, I'll fix it asap.

I see you fixed it, good job!

Me? I'll be hitting the 'Mercan highway speed limit next week @ 55, but I feel much younger mostly

Happy birthday! Hope you have a great day…

As to the keeping, or trying to, of the 'good parts' of Hubbard's stuff, well, I for one can not see this as a positive thing, mainly because it keeps a person tied into it in a subtle way.
Forgive me if I Godwina bit here, but its like saying to yourself 'Gee, the Nazis had such snazzy uniforms, I like dressing nicely, so maybe its not all bad, or maybe its okay if I just keep that part (swaztikas and all), and shiney boots, I like shiney boots......' know what I mean?

I do forgive you (not that I need to ) and I understand your view. I can also see your point, but I am afraid that I do not quite share it. You see, you make this analogy and I will continue it through.

First, and to make sure that I do not get pasted with posts from those taking what I am saying the wrong way, I am not a Nazi and do not condone their actions in any way, shape or form. If I could create a time machine and avert the Nazi horrors, I would.

However, it did happen. I cannot change that. I do not make light of it but, from that awful mess, some good did come! We have quite a few things that we would not have had and may never have had if it had not been for Nazi Germany. I will give a summary of some of them… Perhaps some are known, perhaps some are not...

• Banning of Vivisection
  Nazi Germany was the first country to ban vivisection in the world, enacting a total ban in April 1933. The measure to ban vivisection was a huge concern and was put forth to the Reichstag as early as 1927. High ranking Nazis such as Hermann Goring, Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler were very concerned about animal conservation, particularly pertaining as to how animals were butchered. Most current laws in Germany, and indeed the world, are derived from the laws put forth by the Nazi Party. This is, obviously, incredibly ironic as while on the one hand they defended the lives of brute animals, whilst on the other hand cruelly slaughtered Catholics, homosexuals, gypsies, and Jews.
  
  
• Animal Conservation
  When the Nazis came to power in 1933, their concerns not only laid with the people, but with the animals native to Germany. In 1934, a national hunting law was passed to regulate how many animals could be killed per year, and to establish proper ‘hunting seasons’. These hunting laws have now been applied in most western countries. This law was known as Das Reichsjagdgesetz, the Reich Hunting Law. The Reichstag also footed the bill for education on animal conservation at Primary, Secondary and College levels. Additionally, in 1935, another law was passed, the Reichsnaturschutzgesetz (Reich Nature Protection Act). This law placed several native species on a protection list including the wolf and Eurasian lynx. Additions were added later as to afforestation and the humane slaughter of living fish. Without this law it is likely some species would have completely disappeared from Germany’s forests… And probably many others throughout the world.
  
  
• Anti-Tobacco Movement
  Whether you agree or not with tobacco, Adolf Hitler began one of the most expensive and effective tobacco movements throughout history. While during the 1930s and 1940s, other anti-tobacco movements failed fantastically in other countries, it was taken seriously in Nazi Germany. The Nazis banned smoking in restaurants and public transportation systems, citing public health, and severely regulated the advertising of smoking and cigarettes. There was also a high tobacco tax, and the supplies of cigarettes to the Wehrmacht were rationed. Several health organizations in Nazi Germany even began claiming that smoking heightened the risks of miscarriages by pregnant women, now a commonly known fact. The statistics of annual cigarette consumption per capita as of 1940 had Germany at only 749, while Americans smoked over 3,000. Exactly the same anti-tobacco model being used in England TODAY...
  
  
• Welfare ProgramsNazi Germany had one of the largest public welfare programs in history, based on the philosophy that all Germans should share a standard of living. One of the most famous of these was the Winter Relief program, where high ranking Nazis and common citizens both took to the streets to collect charity for the unfortunate. This was not only an extremely intelligent propaganda move, but also a ritual to generate general good public feeling toward those in need. Posters urged people to donate rather than give directly to beggars. This is currently the same message being issued in London today! Joseph Goebbels, himself a high ranking Nazi in control of Radio, Television and Propaganda, often participated in these events. But how was the cost of this met? Largely from the stealing of belongings from those people considered enemies of the regime. The Nazi government stole immense amounts of money from their population and used it to fund a social welfare scheme that favoured select members of society. Modern schemes modelled on this system are funded by taxes that steal from everyone.
  
  
• The Volkswagen
  Literally meaning “People’s Car”, this vehicle was presented as a car that every German citizen could afford to buy. It was based on the advice of Hitler to the designer, saying that it should resemble a beetle. The car was a huge success (it was made available to citizens of the Third Reich through a savings scheme at 990 Reichsmark, about the price of a small motorcycle), but toward the end of the war resources were low and public availability declined. The Volkswagen emerged more as a military vehicle toward the end of the Third Reich. However this has not stopped it from being one of the most popular vehicles in the world, known for reliability, stylish design (though some might question that!) and ease of use.
  
  
• Autobahn
  While not originally conceived by the Nazis, Hitler was an enthusiastic supporter of the idea and pushed for the largest network of roads to be built across Germany. Established as the first freeway system in the world, the autobahn was a revolutionary feat of engineering that forever changed the way humans travel. Thousands of countries have emulated the system Hitler put in place, including America and Britain. It is single handedly the largest network of roadways in the world, with roads stretching all across the country, even to other countries such as Austria. The construction of this roadway wasn’t only revolutionary in itself, it provided over 100,000 workers with jobs necessary for the economic recovery efforts. It was a goal of the Nazi party to try and bring the country into a sense of unity through the roadway system, and for the most part it was successful. Aircraft was tested on the long, smooth, straight sections of road and Grand Prix racing teams are known to practice on them.
  
  
• Father of Modern Rocketry
  The man who invented rockets as we know them today, Wernher Von Braun, was a member of the Nazi party and commissioned Schutzstaffel (SS) Officer. He aided both Germany and the United States in the use of rockets during and after WW2, and eventually became a naturalized U.S. Citizen. Although he pioneered many areas, including the installation of liquid-fuelled rockets in aircraft and orbit to ground missiles, he is best known for his achievements in NASA. His best achievement there was undoubtedly the development of the Saturn V booster rocket, that helped man to finally touch the moon, in July 1969. Von Braun officially opened the gate to space travel through his innovative inventions… as well as creating one of the most destructive methods of war known to mankind.
  
  
• Innovations in Film
  The Nazis were very interested in both film and music as propaganda techniques and essential cultural pillars. The first known magnetic tape recording was of a speech made by Hitler, and Joseph Goebbels pushed for more complicated methods of filming. For example, the propaganda film ‘Triumph of the Will’, the sequel to the former propaganda film ‘Triumph of the Faith’, is regarded as one of the most important pieces of cinematographic history. The director, Leini Riefenstahl used an astounding thirty film cameras and over one hundred technicians to produce the two hour film. Since Triumph of the Will had an unlimited budget, the latest technologies were used. Cranes and track-rail filming were used, techniques still used today to make a smooth ‘traveling’ effect. Ultimately, the propaganda films are dead, but the techniques developed at the time are seen regularly in the latest great Hollywood blockbusters.
  
  
• Contributions to Fashion…
  You mentioned the uniforms… Well The Nazi style of uniform was as bold as their style of government. Thick-soled leather boots, slouch hats, cowhide coats, and peak hats were some of the staples in Nazi fashion, as well as muted color tones often in gray, tan and black. The SS Panzer military organization struck fear into the hearts of their adversaries, with black forage caps and leather coats which were later adopted by American rockers. Doc Martens closely resemble the jump boots that many Schutzstaffel officers wore. Look around at any rock, industrial or otherwise ‘edgy’ group and you see small traces of Nazi fashion sense. The American novelist Kurt Vonnegut once described the style as ‘mildly theatrical’. Additionally, the founder of Adidas, Adolf Dassler (whose nickname was Adi), was a Nazi. He produced shoes for the Wehrmacht during the war, as well was providing American and Nazi athletes with his footwear during the Berlin Olympics. This created national acclaim when Jesse Owens won the sprinting event at the Berlin Olympics wearing Adolf Dassler’s shoes. Adidas is now a multinational company, supplying athletes all over the world with a supply of footwear and sports accessories. His brother, Rudolf Dassler, was the more ardent Nazi of the two brothers and went on to found another proficient sports company…Puma. Oh – and Hugo Boss was a Nazi who, from 1934, was an official supplier of uniforms to the SA, SS, Hitler Youth, NSKK and other Party organizations.
  
  
• Medical Advances
  A very contentious one, and one that particularly sickens me is the death of ethics from medicine in Nazi Germany which was an unbelievably disgusting, reckless, and dangerous decision, leading to untold atrocities; it has created one of the most extensive ethical controversies in history. Through the Nazi use of torture they discovered information that is discretely used by doctors and medical scientists today. For example, the Nazis extensively studied and monitored hypothermia, at Dachau concentration camp, by subjecting victims to severe torture. The Nazis immersed victims in vats of freezing water or left them out in the winter cold, all the while monitoring changes in body temperature, heart rate, muscle responses and urine. These tests were initially performed on volunteer soldiers, but the Nazis were not satisfied that they had all the information they could get and began to test on concentration camp victims. They attempted to formulate methods to bring the bodies back to a safe temperature, including the “Rapid Active Rewarming” technique that seemed to be the most effective method of revival – and is used today in the west. This research could potentially fill a gap in other researchers studying hypothermia.

So I cannot really agree with you on your point… I hope you get my meaning.

It is not so much that there are not some good parts, but rather that it all ties in, through the mind, actions and heart of what was created, it becomes very hard to seperate because it was actually designed to be thus. In other words, from my own point of view, a person can unknowingly keep getting drawn deeper/back by association with even the slightest of thoughts because the mindfuck was created as a whole mind-replacement thingie, it is full of back-doors and mind games, re-occuring cognitions, and false highs that tend to give one hope that it is 'real'. The bits and pieces that are acceptable are just shrapnel, but the scrapnel's toxic and possibly hides a further more hidious weapon. (hey, its how I think things out, : )

This is difficult! I really agree with you but just because it is hard to separate, I do not yet know if it is right to try to separate things, or to leave them and walk away. This is hard. Very hard indeed and I do not have an answer yet.

To my view the only way to shake it off is to shun the whole ball-of-wax. If you can take yourself back to the start and, start over, doesn't mean totally strip yourself bare, but do some mental house-cleaning with some common sense and gained knowledge.

Again, I really understand your view and really get where you are coming from. However, this has happened before in history and we, as a civilisation, have taken great strides backwards as a result. I can probably find many examples but what springs to mind is when the Romans left England. Everything Roman was deemed bad! Throw it away – Kill those who use it. And so, England fell into the Dark Ages – Soap, medicine, building, cleansing, water processing, social structure… All gone! It was not good. Disease and death increased, superstitions grew and the country basically had a bit of a meltdown!

Learn something real everyday, never stop your brain from gaining, never stop your spirit (or whatever you chose to call your inner being) from growing, never stop your heart from loving and caring. We may not get all the answers seeked in one fell swoop, but accept that that may be.

Again, I agree with you. This is something we must do… My compassion level is at an all-time high and increasing. I am looking and thinking and learning. I am re-learning and trying to get to grips with what I now see.
It is hard and I feel as if I am in a dream at the moment.

I hope you have taken my post as intended - As an honest reply to yours...

Crash

[Ogsonofgroo]

I hope you have taken my post as intended - As an honest reply to yours...

Absolutely no problem there Crash , and I really wasn't trying to egg you into a debate about Germany's history, but merely to point out that even in a most depraved states of society (of course there are many exceptions), there are beneficial things that evolve that could possibly lead to acceptances of the uglier parts, hm, like in our times, on a corporate level for example, where our North American populace eats up cheaply produced goods that are often made in appalling conditions. The main difference I see in this analogy is that here we have choices and the information is out there for us to make those choices, some do, some don't. But in closed totalitarian societies/dictatorships, whether the Romans or Nazis or Russians, present day China, or N Korea, what-ever, there are numerous reasons to fear going against the status quo, pain of death being a prime one I think. Its a big topic meant for other places/site/threads I think, and not something I generally choose to debate, though I do read quite a bit, as it is frustrating if things get polarized or misconstrued ;)

Anyhow, it sounds like you're moving ahead and thinking things through, and that cannot be a bad thing, and thank you for taking the time for a thoughtful reply to my blathering post.

Rock on!



Ogs

[Crashed Alien]

Absolutely no problem there Crash , and I really wasn't trying to egg you into a debate about Germany's history, but merely to point out that even in a most depraved states of society (of course there are many exceptions), there are beneficial things that evolve that could possibly lead to acceptances of the uglier parts, hm, like in our times, on a corporate level for example, where our North American populace eats up cheaply produced goods that are often made in appalling conditions. The main difference I see in this analogy is that here we have choices and the information is out there for us to make those choices, some do, some don't. But in closed totalitarian societies/dictatorships, whether the Romans or Nazis or Russians, present day China, or N Korea, what-ever, there are numerous reasons to fear going against the status quo, pain of death being a prime one I think. Its a big topic meant for other places/site/threads I think, and not something I generally choose to debate, though I do read quite a bit, as it is frustrating if things get polarized or misconstrued ;)

Anyhow, it sounds like you're moving ahead and thinking things through, and that cannot be a bad thing, and thank you for taking the time for a thoughtful reply to my blathering post.

Rock on!



Ogs

Ogs,

I suppose, in my long-winded way, I was trying to make the point that one should try not to throw the baby out with the bath water...

Good is good, bad is bad. I truly believe that if it works for you, then you should use it if you choose to.

I know that most, if not all, of the technology that I know works very well for me and I am happy to continue with it and to pass it to others...

That is in the area of study and Dianetics.

However, I am not at all happy with the current organisation and what is going on there. In my humble view, it is not what was intended. It appears to have been infiltrated or taken over and looks to me as if it has gone rotten... I might be wrong...

At the moment, this is where I stand. But as I have said, I am learning, looking and changing all the time. I have had to come to terms with the shattering of my universe and am trying to reform it.

I am likely to make mistakes, and will then have to recover from them... But the most important thing is that I am able to make the mistakes and that I am free to do so. Just as I am free to correct them if I so choose.

I really like what you said. I also really like your intelligent response...

Thank you.

Crash

[Crashed Alien]

Well, things seemed to have calmed down a bit...

Just in time for the Jubilee!

Still trying to sort things out...

Had a discussion today with a good friend...

It is amazing how deep things go - He, like me, was pretty much born into Scientology.

We both seem to have difficulty with things, not all the same things, but related...

Discussion we had was interesting - I won't share it all because it was personal.

However, one point that sticks, is the fact that we both have difficulty in receiving help.

Can give and give and give, but truly find it almost impossible to receive.

Or, for that matter, to enjoy something self-indulgent...

Not sure how to sort this out.

It will come.

Bits of memory returned today. Quite vivid! I had a memory from 1981 that was so clear that I felt like I was there! Really bizarre! It is like a sudden squirt of memory at FULL volume, in Full colour with feelings, physical and emotional, and even the wind in my hair!.

I am not sure if this is good or bad, or if I am moving upwards or downwards at the moment...

Have a great weekend.. Enjoy Her Majesty's 60th Jubilee...

Crash

[Free to shine]

The "help" thing is an interesting one, and yes, one of the hidden layers.
When you are brought up to direct any urge to 'help' towards the organisation, it is meant to make you feel pretty guilty at helping anyone else. And on receiving help - well you must have 'something wrong with you' in order to need it - and that is not acceptable!

Practice being nice and helping yourself. I'm not sure if I posted this lately but one of the things that was suggested to me and I did and do successfully, is to imagine YOU are your best friend. Example - you invite your best friend to dinner, what do you serve them? How does your house look ... comfortable? Do you have a nice bed for them to sleep in if they are staying over? Do you indulge your best friend with anything that you would consider is too much for yourself? When you work at the concept of considering yourself your own best friend, it's quite an eye opener and shows areas of our lives where we can neglect the comfort and love that we do actually deserve.

This is a deep self esteem issue really. In scientology you are 'broken until we fix you' and that simply is not the case.

[Crashed Alien]

Free to Shine,

Good to hear from you. I hope all is well.

Thank you for your post. I consider the words you say carefully, as I do with all the posts here actually.

I find myself pondering them, I mull them over and place them in context, imagine people thinking about what I have written and then taking the time to write back.

It is interesting how much "feeling" I have, not just about you, but about everyone here.

The "help" thing is an interesting one, and yes, one of the hidden layers.
When you are brought up to direct any urge to 'help' towards the organisation, it is meant to make you feel pretty guilty at helping anyone else. And on receiving help - well you must have 'something wrong with you' in order to need it - and that is not acceptable!

This is interesting, because I am not alone with this. My family and friends who are still in are deeply smothered by this. My friends who are out, are still having the greatest difficulty with this... And so am I.

I do like to help people, very much, and generally, they seem to like being helped. But unless it is something that I am learning, I have great difficulty in accepting the reverse flow... Even to the point of destruction!

Practice being nice and helping yourself. I'm not sure if I posted this lately but one of the things that was suggested to me and I did and do successfully, is to imagine YOU are your best friend. Example - you invite your best friend to dinner, what do you serve them? How does your house look ... comfortable? Do you have a nice bed for them to sleep in if they are staying over? Do you indulge your best friend with anything that you would consider is too much for yourself? When you work at the concept of considering yourself your own best friend, it's quite an eye opener and shows areas of our lives where we can neglect the comfort and love that we do actually deserve.

This is an astonishingly good piece of advice! I have been trying to do it. It is hard to do , and I am not sure why, but I am working towards it... I really am...

This is a deep self esteem issue really. In scientology you are 'broken until we fix you' and that simply is not the case.

This is also interesting. I do like myself, but what you say is a really deep thing to consider...

I feel as if were conditioned to believe that we were the elite beings, that we had a technology beyond and above all that had ever been before and that using it would right the world.

Therefore, we could not be seen to have flaws, or that could mean that we had muffed it up somewhere... You know, even a slight hesitation when reading (going to happen because with me, like used by most humans, I do need to breath), but even that could mean ending up in cramming, etc...

And it seemed to have this effect, the "help" I got was painful and unpleasant and I no longer wanted it...

I even found myself doing it to my own children! I have, hopefully, corrected that now...

However, I also use the real technology, you know what I am referring to - Using the study tech as it was originally intended, with the compassion and love that a real teacher has.

It works very well. It may be obvious, it may be common sense, but it does work and the results are lovely.

I seem to rambling on again. I hope you are still awake.

I did something on Sunday that I never, never, never, ever thought I would do...

I spoke to a priest! A "Christian" priest...

He is one of the nicest men I have known and I have known him for a few years now.

I opened up to him!

Scary! I felt as if I were talking to the enemy, as if I was committing an act of treason! Yet I continued.

He wants to know more and the flow was that he wanted to help, not to harm, and it felt warming.

Crash

[Smilla]

Sometimes the best way we can help someone is by just being there, without trying to help them in any particularly definite way - just loving them for who and what they are.

[Ogsonofgroo]

Sometimes the best way we can help someone is by just being there, without trying to help them in any particularly definite way - just loving them for who and what they are.

Yarrr, but sometimes ya gotta go "Hey, dats fire! Don't stick body-parts in thar or you'll be burned!"
"That's a paper shredder, not made for brains or faces!"
"The ship is sinking, grab a life jacket and bail into de life-boats!"
"Cult of LRon fucks your mind and soul up... grab a life jacket and run for your life!"

Ya know, passing common sense stuff on and all that




Because hey, if you loves people and humanity in general you can sometimes stop people from making the same mistakes an' such eh!

[Crashed Alien]

Sometimes the best way we can help someone is by just being there, without trying to help them in any particularly definite way - just loving them for who and what they are.

Smilla,

I agree... Ultimately, it has to be one's own decision... One's own choice.

I understand OGS perspective, but I do not really think it is quite that black & white....

Well maybe it is?

If it is, then I am even deeper than I realised, and must have a longer way to go.

Being there is good... I am stumbling around finding my way and falling on my face half the time, so with your help, I can get up again and continue. That is more than appreciated.

I am a bit wobbly about things at the moment... Having vivid memories returning, strange dreams, fiery and overwhelming emotions...

But it feels like healing, not hurting or free-falling, so I am continuing my journey one step at a time...

Thank you for your support.

ALL advice is welcome.

Crash