Whole Track Question.

[Rene Descartes]

It's just not worth bothering about unless it is more definite. This guy who was investigating children who thought they lived before would be bound to find some matches with kids that say they were born in another village and had two brothers one of whom was called Mohammed. It is not a valuable pursuit. It needs to be something a lot more amazing for people to usefully go down that path. I for one will not spend any time on it. The same goes for exteriorisations. If this is a real thing then there are bound to be individual differences in ability such that some can do it easily and read a playing card placed on the back of their heads. And I hope such a thing is possible and will one day be proven but until that time I will wait.

So essentially this translates to a kid from Ireland saying that in the last life he/she lived in a village and drank at a pub with a friend named McCarthy.

Well I guess the smarter kids in the CoS now aren't making claims that they were mission holders in the 80s.

Rd00

[guanoloco]

I've been frozen in alcohol and glycol so many times that I dramatize it every evening.

I've been bapped so many times from a coffee grinder that I wear horn-rimmed glasses and have an automatic coffee machine.

I am afraid of birds because I think they will fly me up to a height and drop me on the rocks.

I keep reaching for my pirate's blaster in times of trouble.

I think racecars have names like one-one.

I'm back guys - WWP is going through a troubled spot so I am back here to troll you all!

Is it revenimus or reveniō in this case?

[SweetnessandLight]

Yeah, that's quite true, and it's a very important point that I think most people never understand, because they think science is some kind of modern magic, where we can just 'somehow' measure things, instead of having to actually do stuff in the real world. It's just that, despite widespread impressions that this point has something to do with the uncertainty principle, it really doesn't. The fact that measurement is never really passive simply happens to be the factor that is most often overlooked when somebody tries to beat the uncertainty principle with a clever measurement.

What quantum measurement does seem to do is force something to have a definite value of the quantity you measure, even if before the measurement it didn't. Kind of like asking a somewhat wishy-washy friend whether they like chocolate or vanilla best. They don't really have a preference, but when you put the question to them, they pick one at random, in order to have an answer for you. And at least for a while afterwards, they'll remember to be consistent if you ask them the same question again. But ask them the question next week, and you may get a different random answer.

That's how quantum measurement seems to work. Nobody knows why. The current state of science is, "It just does that." It's called the 'measurement postulate' or 'collapse postulate' of quantum mechanics.

It's a morphic field? This IS metaphysics, by the way...

[Student of Trinity]

It's a morphic field? This IS metaphysics, by the way...

As far as I know, "morphic field" is a term coined by Rupert Sheldrake. I have very little idea what it means.

[Reasonable]

I never achieved The State of Clear or OT.
I did become a Class V Auditor.
Also, I was declared an SP.

However, I have some friend/s who are Indies
and every time we touch the subject of my disaffection
with the whole thing, sooner or later, I hear "but people
run into the same incidents on the whole track!" supposedly
with no "indoctrination" from Hubbard.

My question is - do they really?





I think it's a good topic.

Please, share/contribute/discuss.

On the OT levels they tell you what you are going to run so it they tell you the incident so of course you all run the same thing. It is total indoctrination from Hubbard.

[La La Lou Lou]

All the incidents I can remember hearing from my track or pc's tracks were all pretty much like here and now, or at least history or geography lessons. A few incidents in areas where the culture was slightly exotic. None of the incidents were any where as exotic as this planet can produce. All the bodies were within the reference of Humans and Earth. Everyone everywhere spoke English, it was star trek! Never seen seas of frozen nitrogen, never saw lakes of liquid methane, never saw creatures from giant planets never saw faces that were not symetrical, I never saw a flat screen PC or a mobile phone, it was always just a bit more modern than then.

It was all mocked up crap.

[Mark A. Baker]

... Well I guess the smarter kids in the CoS now aren't making claims that they were mission holders in the 80s.

Rd00

Nah. They're in Anonymous.


Mark A. Baker

[Mark A. Baker]

On the OT levels they tell you what you are going to run so it they tell you the incident so of course you all run the same thing. It is total indoctrination from Hubbard.

That is true as far as it goes. It is also true that individuals with no knowledge of the ot levels or other prior prompting have reported running similar-type whole track incidents.


Mark A. Baker

[Man de la Mancha]

That is true as far as it goes. It is also true that individuals with no knowledge of the ot levels or other prior prompting have reported running similar-type whole track incidents.


Mark A. Baker

Are they similar enough that you are certain it is the same thing? If so, can you give an example? If you are prohibited from describing the incident, can you otherwise describe the basis of your certainty?

When I found out the "OT Incidents" were given to the PC it certainly raised an eyebrow. Why is that necessary if the incidents are real? Doesn't this just increase the risk that the PC is running his own imagination off Hubbard's premise?

I am sincerely interested in your take on this as you seem to be quite straightforward about things, even with the onslaught of opposition.

[Mark A. Baker]

Are they similar enough that you are certain it is the same thing? If so, can you give an example? If you are prohibited from describing the incident, can you otherwise describe the basis of your certainty?

When I found out the "OT Incidents" were given to the PC it certainly raised an eyebrow. Why is that necessary if the incidents are real? Doesn't this just increase the risk that the PC is running his own imagination off Hubbard's premise?

I am sincerely interested in your take on this as you seem to be quite straightforward about things, even with the onslaught of opposition.

MoLM, contrary to the prejudice reports of others, I am not certain of anything other than the specific ways in which I and those I have assisted have benefited from use of scientology practices & procedures. Nor do I think that certainty is either required or to be encouraged. I certainly make no claims concerning the truth of hubbard's take on the ot levels. To the contrary, I believe for myself that the levels are at best delusional misrepresentations of things which may have some sort of subjective reality but which hubbard did not fully understand himself.

Similar themes, although not exactly the same narrative, occur in other traditional spiritual practices. Additionally, back in the days of my own ned I spontaneously ran some rather intense whole track incidents which dealt with similar themes and topics. They were in some ways very intense and resulted in some noticeable personal shifts for me. I wasn't aware of the content of the standard ot levels at the time. When I learned what they were, I laughed.

I consider hubbard to be incorrect in his recorded views concerning the upper levels. However I do not dismiss all aspects of the upper level materials. It seems clear to me there are aspects to them which can be useful from a spiritual perspective to address. Exploring those aspects does not require belief. The requisite of belief is one of the great failings of hubbard & his church.


Mark A. Baker
p.s I do not recognize any barrier to discussing the ot levels. Nor do I recognize as valid hubbard's recommended restrictions. Frankly though the ot levels of the church don't interest me much, certainly not in the way they have been promoted by the church. Accordingly, I don't have much to say about them from my own lack of interest.