Did David Miscavige Murder Ann Marie Tidman?

[Dulloldfart]

Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human per this Wikipedia article, that gives a lot more explanation.

This recent article by Marty Rathbun, Disdain For A Valuable Human Life, gives some details of DM's (apparent) involvement in her death by not only denying access to medical treatment from within the CofS but also by preventing her family from doing anything either.

Several times I have quoted the definition of depraved indifference, even going as far as to suggest The Church of Depraved Indifference would be a fitting name for the CofS.

Obviously I can't speak for law enforcement, but it seems to me from reading Marty's article that Miscavige's actions were not merely a case of depraved indifference but more willful than that.

Any comments?

Paul

[Jquepublic]

Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human per this Wikipedia article, that gives a lot more explanation.

This recent article by Marty Rathbun, Disdain For A Valuable Human Life, gives some details of DM's (apparent) involvement in her death.

Several times I have quoted the definition of depraved indifference, even going as far as to suggest The Church of Depraved Indifference would be a fitting name for the CofS.

Obviously I can't speak for law enforcement, but it seems to me from reading Marty's article that Miscavige's actions were not merely a case of depraved indifference but more willful than that.

Any comments?

Paul

I think Marty would believe that Miscavage was involved no matter what the circumstances. I feel that her death was no different than any other Scientology-related cancer death, though, of which there are too many. The idea that you can handle everything with Scientology is responsible. Not Miscavage. (Not that I am in any way a fan)

[Dulloldfart]

I feel that her death was no different than any other Scientology-related cancer death, though, of which there are too many.

Did you read Marty's article?

Paul

[Jquepublic]

Did you read Marty's article?

Paul

I did. I do think Miscavage may have kept her someplace "safe" (for him) as was done with MSH. I also think that the family might have grounds for action. But the gist of what he had to say re: her chances for recovery being poor because of proximity to Miscavage (paraphrasing) combined with post after post asserting he's an SP and knowing what that means in Scio lingo...nah. I honestly don't know why the correlation between cancer and OTs is so high, there may well be a psychospiritual cause, but cancer is still cancer. AFAIK Miscavage hasn't learned to engineer it.

[GoNuclear]

Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human per this Wikipedia article, that gives a lot more explanation.

This recent article by Marty Rathbun, Disdain For A Valuable Human Life, gives some details of DM's (apparent) involvement in her death by not only denying access to medical treatment from within the CofS but also by preventing her family from doing anything either.

Several times I have quoted the definition of depraved indifference, even going as far as to suggest The Church of Depraved Indifference would be a fitting name for the CofS.

Obviously I can't speak for law enforcement, but it seems to me from reading Marty's article that Miscavige's actions were not merely a case of depraved indifference but more willful than that.

Any comments?

Paul

If there were still new episodes of "Law & Order" being made, I'm sure that McCoy or Cutter could have gotten a conviction. For better or worse, though, this is the real world, and getting DM locked up would be difficult at best. Of course, if you could come up with enough dirt to get DM locked up, the most fun thing would be that these institutions now are tobacco free. Watching DM freak out with his supply of Camel Unfiltered cut off might make it all worth while.

Pete

[Axiom142]

Murder?

I’m not sure that there is enough evidence to support that claim. But certainly I believe that Miscavige must be very pleased that Annie Tidman is no longer around and cannot tell the true story of what happened in the last years of Hubbard’s life.

I found this part of Tony Ortega’s article rather instructive:

But I had to put it to Rathbun himself -- after all, wasn't he the one who screamed down the highway at illegal speeds to get to the Ontario airport, and then flew across the country so he could track down Tidman and bring her back? An experience, combined with subsequent "rehabilitation" with hard labor and sec-checking, that had "broken" her?

Didn't he feel some remorse for having helped to break down Tidman so that she never attempted to leave again?

"Do I feel guilty? Well, not really. She made her decision," he told me, saying that when he caught up with Tidman, she could have continued onto a small plane that was about to leave the Boston airport and he would not have been able to follow her on board. Instead, just the sight of him seemed to make her give up her escape attempt. Rathbun defensively added that he'd done what he could to help the family get what information it could in the last year and a half. But then, he shifted tone.

"Yeah, I do feel bad about it," he said about the 1992 incident. "But I think I've been doing everything I can to reverse those problems."

I guess that RTC Inspectors are made of different stuff to the rest of us. If it had been me, I know that I would be wracked with guilt right now. But not being OT enough, I wouldn’t be able to see that it was all her own fault.

We can see a (apparent) change of heart after his initial denial. Damage control or some humanity breaking through that ‘only the tigers survive’ tough Scientology exterior?

Annie’s story sums up so much of what is wrong with Scientology. Forced into a cult by her parents, brainwashed without the chance to make her own life, and trusting completely a conman whom she views as a demi-god. Even to the extent where she believes his nonsense about “smoking doesn’t cause cancer” which ultimately causes her death.

And, even when she has actually escaped and is just feet from ultimate freedom, she meekly surrenders herself and goes back into her prison which she knows that she will never leave. This is the end product of Scientology – willingly walking back to your own execution.

Evil beyond words.

Axiom142

[anonomog]

Assuming that all that Marty has reported is true:

Holding someone incommunicado
Taking away someone's legal voice
Witholding medical treatment


Mix it up with:
Miscavige's previous abusive behaviour history
The sensitive position held by Ann Tidman
Possibility of a deathbed confession leaking out
Possibility that the dying woman would feel she had nothing to lose and go to the press

Then I can't see how anyone would not at least entertain the thought that this could have been willful murder. Someone posted here that there is a post in the SO that handles cancer cases and advises conventional medical treatment.

How to prove it?
Incommunicado -
The church could say that she voluntarily disconnected with family out of the cult as she felt they were making her sick. That she had a better chance of improving away from negative influences.
Witholding medical treatment -
The church could say she refused treatment. Can anyone be forced to have cancer treatment?
Legal -
She was afraid the cancer would affect her mental capacity to make decisions in the future?

I'm no lawyer but I think it would be very difficult to prove that this wasn't exactly what she wanted. What would be the counter argument.

This is an organisation where people "voluntarily" go to the RPF, work for slave wages and feel they can cure illnesses without regular medical intervention. It is not a stretch to believe that a person would want to die in accordance with the belief system that had been strictly followed throughout life.

Unless the port captain blows and spills all the secrets to the press...

[SpecialFrog]

The manner in which she was being held almost certainly meets the definition of human trafficking used by various international bodies. Consent that is the result of coersion or an abuse of a power relationship does not constitute legitimate consent.

However, I don't know that US law is consistent with that definition and the fact that she likely gave some form of consent may be enough of a fig leaf for the CoS.

I recall reading RVYs account of how the first time he blew he was caught and talked back into the RPF even though he had been convinced he would die in the RPF if he didn't escape. As with Annie Broeker, no force was used on him to bring him back.

Additionally, there is evidence in Tony's article that she was allowed to communicate with her family she just did not communicate anything of substance. I don't know if she had any legal guarantee to unmonitored communication. I'm sure my employer has a right to listen in on all my phonecalls at work if they want (they can certainly read my work e-mail).

Finally, I didn't see anything in Marty's article that suggests she was prevented from getting treatment that she desired. The prohibition against doing anything that would create bad PR for Scientology seems to be taken very seriously by a lot of people.

Encouraging someone not to get medical treatment for religious reasons is a touchy area in general.

And I don't remotely buy that David Miscavige's Aura of Suppression gives anyone cancer.

So without a determination of human trafficking to connect all three together they probably don't add up to anything legally.

[olska]

I read Marty's blog entry on this.

most of what I know about law, murder, etc. I learn from TV shows, so... with that in mind, read on...

I think "murder" is stretching it, although murder by way of "depraved indifference" might stick -- I don't know the law well enough to guess at that. i think it would be VERY hard to prove, especiallly now so long after her death and the body has been cremated.

Although there have been cases (I think) of parents being prosecuted for withholding medical care from sick children for "religious" reasons, we must keep in mind that she was an adult and ultimately, in the eyes of the law, she herself made the choices regarding her health care. Even though she gave over power of attorney to someone else, to attend to her affairs, there is no record that she was ever declared "incompetent" and therefore a "dependent" on anyone else's judgment.

I think the Distric Attorney (who would bring such charges) is likely to be more interested in cases it is more likely to win rather than taking on the Co$ or Miscavige for moral reasons.

HOWEVER,

I think her family might have a good CIVIL case for "wrongful death" if they cared to pursue it, and could show enough evidence that she was coerced into the decisions she made. Since wrongful death is a CIVIL case, it does not require a unanimous verdict from the jury which hears it.

I say wrongful death because she was denied (or actively encouraged to refuse) state-of-the-art medical care, her whereabouts were withheld from the family, on and on.

BUT...

Aren't Annie's family all scientologists, heavily invested in the Co$? If so, you know they will never bring a civil suit against the Co$, or David Miscavige, so nothing will get done except Marty will continue to "investigate" and broadly publish whatever he selects to publish from what he finds out, ... in such a way that covers his own ass and he can't be sued for libel, of course.

Unfortunately, this will probably end up as another trial by public opinion with no clear verdict and Co$ and Miscavige, and Marty-as-bounty-hunter, will all go unpunished except by public opinion.

[paradox]

Murder?

I’m not sure that there is enough evidence to support that claim. But certainly I believe that Miscavige must be very pleased that Annie Tidman is no longer around and cannot tell the true story of what happened in the last years of Hubbard’s life.

I found this part of Tony Ortega’s article rather instructive:

But I had to put it to Rathbun himself -- after all, wasn't he the one who screamed down the highway at illegal speeds to get to the Ontario airport, and then flew across the country so he could track down Tidman and bring her back? An experience, combined with subsequent "rehabilitation" with hard labor and sec-checking, that had "broken" her?

Didn't he feel some remorse for having helped to break down Tidman so that she never attempted to leave again?

"Do I feel guilty? Well, not really. She made her decision," he told me, saying that when he caught up with Tidman, she could have continued onto a small plane that was about to leave the Boston airport and he would not have been able to follow her on board. Instead, just the sight of him seemed to make her give up her escape attempt. Rathbun defensively added that he'd done what he could to help the family get what information it could in the last year and a half. But then, he shifted tone.

"Yeah, I do feel bad about it," he said about the 1992 incident. "But I think I've been doing everything I can to reverse those problems."

I guess that RTC Inspectors are made of different stuff to the rest of us. If it had been me, I know that I would be wracked with guilt right now. But not being OT enough, I wouldn’t be able to see that it was all her own fault.

We can see a (apparent) change of heart after his initial denial. Damage control or some humanity breaking through that ‘only the tigers survive’ tough Scientology exterior?

Annie’s story sums up so much of what is wrong with Scientology. Forced into a cult by her parents, brainwashed without the chance to make her own life, and trusting completely a conman whom she views as a demi-god. Even to the extent where she believes his nonsense about “smoking doesn’t cause cancer” which ultimately causes her death.

And, even when she has actually escaped and is just feet from ultimate freedom, she meekly surrenders herself and goes back into her prison which she knows that she will never leave. This is the end product of Scientology – willingly walking back to your own execution.

Evil beyond words.

Axiom142

We know very well how it would have went for Wrathbunny had he failed in his mission to retrieve her. Beyond bad. It came down to, essentially, raw dog-eat-dog survival, him or her. We know next to nothing of ALL that was said between them. And what very little we do know of the encounter comes only from his telling of it. He may have been down on his knees begging for her to come back with him, figuratively or literally. He lays it all on her shoulders as "her decision." <puke>. But, oh yeah, he does feel bad for her (after 2nd thoughts with who he was talking with [Ortega] ); after all, she got the treatment he successfully avoided at her expense, for the moment; his comeuppance at the musical chairs bash wasn't quite due yet.