Marty toasted on both sides on KHOW radio yesterday

[Vittorio]

That's a typical viewpoint of an arrogant, koolaide drinking jerk. Before you said that I actually didn't think you were such a person.

Yes, I do understand what Thetans and Body Thetans mean. I think it's nonsense. Remember I said that 'space alien' is also a term of ridicule.

When I made that staement do you think it was something that I actually believed or a cultural flaw in Scientology I was pointing out? Because I can tell you quite sincerely that is was the latter. Why you need to resort to name calling to get your point across.

And you don't know what a thetan or body thetan is. They are not physical bodies and a space alien is a physical body. But yes, the 'incidents' are very sci-fi.

[Lone Star]

When I made that staement do you think it was something that I actually believed or a cultural flaw in Scientology I was pointing out? Because I can tell you quite sincerely that is was the latter. Why you need to resort to name calling to get your point across.

And you don't know what a thetan or body thetan is. They are not physical bodies and a space alien is a physical body. But yes, the 'incidents' are very sci-fi.

I misunderstood you. I see that now after carefully re-reading your post. Damn! I was being glib! I apologize for the unnecessarily strong response.

I truly do know what a thetan is though. I know they're not physical bodies. I did a poor job of making my point originally. Maybe there is no point. I think I'll just let it drop and go hiking.

[Rene Descartes]

The "acceptable truth" is their achilles heel. Actually Umberto Eco did a nice job of exposing that whole technique in The Name of the Rose where the inquisitor is interrogating the "ex" heretic.

An excellent film. I wanted to refer to it during the Debbie Cook court scenario and call forth the part where the "ex" heretic says that he would confess to whatever it is they say he is confessing to.

Rd00

[Rene Descartes]

There's been a lot of resistance by some to the use of the term 'space alien'. It's basically semantics in my opinion. No, LRH didn't call thetans or body thetans space aliens. But when a wog with a woggy worldview reads OT3 and other material regarding BTs, he or she sees that Xenu was from another planet, these beings thrown down to Teegeeeack were from another planet, so therefore these are aliens from outer space. Those silly wogs! They're so woggy.

'Space alien' is also a term of ridicule, which is probably the real reason for the resistance to it. For instance, when Brooke Shields wanted to fire back at Tom Cruise for publicly ridiculing her and invalidating her post-partum depression, she said, "Well at least I don't pray to space aliens". Of course TC doesn't pray to space aliens. She was using terms that she understood. Ron's writings are so fantastic and "out there" that people tend to end up using the words and phrases that they know and understand. Of course Brooke's main purpose was to ridicule TC and his ridiculous beliefs.

Anyway, LRH was a science fiction writer after all. Sci-fi authors write about space aliens. He's the only one who made a religion out of it.

So, being a J and D woggy wog myself now, I have no problem saying that the OT levels are about auditing space aliens out of your body.

Would "former space aliens" suffice?

Rd00

[Rene Descartes]

Okay, Lone Star, I read that differently from the way you did. I read what Vittoria said as being what the COS members who hold that attitude toward others seem to believe, not what he himself believes. But the whole structure of COS is very top down, with Ron (now Dave) as the Alpha dog at the top. I strongly dislike all such rigidly structured hierarchies as being totalitarian and inhumane.

So far as I am concerned, Vittorio is in the right place here at ESMB and welcome to stay here and talk with us some more.

Vittorio, I understand your viewpoint that I do not understand the concept of Thetans as Ron mean it.

Maybe my calling them dead space aliens seems very disrespectful or hurtful to you, and if so, I'm sorry, but that is how I honestly see the concept of BT's haunting or infesting us and giving us problems. (At least I didn't call them "space cooties!")

I accept that you experienced some positive gains from your processing on upper levels. I accept that you feel you understand what Ron meant by it all better than I do, and that I just don't grasp the concepts correctly yet.

What I would like to be able to do is to get you in agreement with me that Ron, as a science fiction writer with a creative mind, made the whole space opera (his words) thing up, as a fun game to play with people which would also sell his books and make him some money (it sure did).

Can we agree that there is in reality no Zenu, no galactic empire, no stuffing souls or spirits into volcanos, etc.? That it never happened? That it was a story that Ron made up?

Can we agree that this beautiful home of ours, the amazing earth is not Teegeeack, or a "prison planet"? That was something that Ron made up, is in a fantasy or fairy tale story?

That our bodily health ills and problems are not caused by Body Thetans? That Body Thetans do not exist in reality, and are in fact something that Ron made up to go along with his space opera story? That they are not real, and so cannot hurt or harm us, and that we do not need to learn how to get them to cognite and blow, as they don't exist in reality? They only exist in the minds of Scientologists who believe in them?

Can we agree on any of that?

You can call them space aliens when you converse with me. I mean it is not like you are calling them "wogs" or "clams".

Rd00

[Lone Star]

Would "former space aliens" suffice?

Rd00

How about "Body thetans formerly known as space aliens"?



Disclaimer: Space aliens are physical, whereas body thetans are non-physical.

[Jquepublic]

Congratulations, it seems that you were a Loyal Officer, not on this Earth at the time of Incident 2, nor were you captured and brought to Earth during Incident 2, and you did not have to endure the mass implanting to which the BTs were subjected. Yet, according to OT 3, anyone, on Earth now, has oodles of Incident 2-implanted BTs which need to be blown.

From Ron's Journal 67:

"The material involved in this sector is so vicious that it is carefully arranged to kill anyone if he discovers the exact truth of it.

"So in January and February of this year, I became very ill, almost lost the body, and somehow or other brought it off and obtained the material, and was able to live through it.

"I am very sure that I was the fist one that ever did live through any attempt to obtain that material. This material I'm talking about, of course, is very upper level material and you will forgive me if I don't describe it to you in very broad detail because it is very likely to make you sick too."

One might ask, what is "the material involved in ths sector" that "is so vicious"?

It was the 4th dynamic engram - as described by Hubbard - called Incident 2 of OT 3 of 75 million years ago.

The material of 'History of Man' is not part of OT 3, but the approach to "handling" any "invalidators " can be traced back to H.O.M.:

From the 'History of Man' ["This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last 60 trillion years"] by L. Ron Hubbard, early 1952, originally titled 'What to Audit':

"Tell people who want to invalidate all this, 'Your criticism is very just. It's only fantasy.' ."

Hubbard was playing head-games with his followers for a long time.

From Introduction to the Clearing Course and OT 2 materials:

"Many persons experience unreality at the start of [implant] GPM running[ancient implants told to the person, through the OT materials, by L. Ron Hubbard] This leaves when you see the meter reads."


This is an except from a post from DartSmohen, a student on the first Class VIII course on the Apollo in 1968:

"Did you ever wonder why so many people died on NOT's? Why people committed suicide on OT3 and NOTS ?, strokes ? heart attacks ? cancers ?

"How many people have been left penniless, their lives turned upside down, families broken up, all because of this insane and obscene dream ?

"Do you think Hubbard didn't know what was going on ? Do you think that despite his own phobias that he knew deep down that it was never going to work, but what a great marketing tool. How much cash has been poured into the cult in the name of these pointless activities. (Let us not forget the well-intentioned FZ and RO). "


And some more from DartSmohen:

"Once again, I pose the question; Is it all a matter of suggestion?

"It has been commented on, and confirmed by those who were with him at the time, that the content of "Inc 1 & 2" are the drug fuelled ramblings of Hubbard.

"Recent postings regarding the origin of 'Xemnu' have served to accelerate the popping of the OT3 'bubble'. Hubbard was a sci-fi fanatic and it is no coincidence that he launched Dianetics through a sci-fi magazine.

"Thus it would be a fair comment to make that further 'developments' made by RO and Freezone, based on the Hubbard OT principles, are in their own way 'castles built on sand'.

"The early materials which Hubbard drew on for his basic procedures are surely the more valid. they have stood the test of time and do produce genuine case gain.

"Remember, as a person becomes more and more involved in the pursuit of 'OT' through whatever version of upper materials are being offered, they become that bit more susceptible to suggestion.

"No doubt the adherents of RO and Freezone will wish to take issue with the above comments, but neither of these groups can deny that here is an element of suggestion in what is presented and run."


Scientology uses mostly benign writings and actions as lead-ins to the deeper and darker regions of Scientology. These mostly benign actions are a kind of disguise that protects Scientology, and deflects criticism, plus serves to convince Scientology newbies that Scientology's critics must be deranged, since they're denouncing as destructive a simple action that is, by itself, benign.

Those new to Scientology, having read a Dianetic or Scientology book, and having (naive or deceitful) Scientologists, saying, 'What is true for you is true for you,' etc., and having their attention directed to a long and impressive-looking 'Grade Chart', which would seem to promise 'more of the same but even better', have sometimes decided to become more deeply involved.

'You've had a sampling of what's to come, and it only gets better.'

Of course, Scientology is a 'bait and switch operation', and "what you see" is - ultimately - not 'what you get'.

Scientology, IMO, is an enlightenment-coated trap. And, as confusing as it may sometimes seem, and as difficult as it may sometimes be to explain, that enlightenment-coating, by itself, is not necessarily a bad thing - as long as it's kept in mind that it's the 'cheese' in the Scientology mind-trap."

Thanks for this - as always, a good post from you. I differ with you though on one point - I think Hubbard believed his own writings were truth. Maybe not at first, or always, or across the boards the way current cult members are expected to believe. But I think the infamous Affirmations and his entanglement with Crowley/Parsons show a man who firmly believed in magic. If Ron Jr is telling the truth - and I personally don't doubt that he is - then Hubbard's use of drugs to induce a trance state and vision parallels numerous occult and shamanic rituals. His research was more magic. And the more people who agreed with him, the more likely a man like that is to start to believe it himself.

[HelluvaHoax!]

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm saying it lets the Interviewee "off the hook". Scientologists don't (to my knowledge) think in those terms, a thetan is a thetan is a thetan. They don't really think of themselves as aliens either though most of them have some inkling/illusion of having lived an extra-terrestrial existence.

I could ask you to simply read it again but rather than that I'll say again, Hubbard never uses the word "alien" in describing these things (and neither do scientologists). Think it thru.

Almost every Interviewer I've ever heard asking questions about this stuff asked idiotic questions that were too easily dismissed by scientologists. Interviewers usually talk too much. If the interviewer were to simply ask about "entities" instead of "aliens" we would get either an obvious flat-out lie (eg: "I've never seen Entities discussed in all my years in scientology") or a straight answer (eg: yes OT3 deals with Entites) or a refusal to answer the question (eg: I can't discuss that because I've promised to never discuss it).

The actual word "alien" is not part of any Hubbard discussion of these things as far as I know and when an Interviewer asks about "aliens" it's quite easy for the scientologist to pretend or actually conceive ignorance of what's being referenced. Scientologists make excellent mental gymnasts.

I probably said it better originally. Perhaps if you re-read what I actually said on this thread you'll understand what I'm getting at.

PS: As I noted in my earlier post, I understand what is actually being inferred by the Inc 2 materials as, I'm sure, do most here. The document you posted is genuine, I've done OT 3.

If this is your closing argument as Marty's attorney, the jury just found him guilty of lying. LOL

It is not confusing at all whether Marty knows what he was being asked.

It is not in question whether he lied, right?

THere is no question about whether he believes in space opera. Did you ever see the "fishing video" he did with Mike Rinder where he excitedly shares his cognition about some wholetrack implant that he believes David Miscavich is dramatizing?

Any Scientologist who had enough money, time and basic reading skills to to get up thru OT III knows what it means when someone asks them if Scientology believes that there are aliens inside the body.

If they wanted to tell the truth they could simply say, "...we don't call them aliens, but yes, that is correct--we believe that there are spiritual entities or beings that are stuck in our bodies that we need to get out."

Any other answer is a lie.

Why are you acting as if a Scientologist would not know what is meant by "aliens" and Xenu?

I have no idea what your point is.

[RolandRB]

If this is your closing argument as Marty's attorney, the jury just found him guilty of lying. LOL

It is not confusing at all whether Marty knows what he was being asked.

It is not in question whether he lied, right?

THere is no question about whether he believes in space opera. Did you ever see the "fishing video" he did with Mike Rinder where he excitedly shares his cognition about some wholetrack implant that he believes David Miscavich is dramatizing?

Any Scientologist who had enough money, time and basic reading skills to to get up thru OT III knows what it means when someone asks them if Scientology believes that there are aliens inside the body.

If they wanted to tell the truth they could simply say, "...we don't call them aliens, but yes, that is correct--we believe that there are spiritual entities or beings that are stuck in our bodies that we need to get out."

Any other answer is a lie.

Why are you acting as if a Scientologist would not know what is meant by "aliens" and Xenu?

I have no idea what your point is.

Fucking love it !!

[RolandRB]

Fucking love it !!

Oh no, I was just conversing with my spiritual entity attachments, ashually. Those jolly good spiritual associates of mine who were called in for income tax audits on their home planet and injected with alcohol and glycol and frozen and placed on DC-8 space planes and flown to Teegeack and placed around the bases of volcanoes and nuked and gathered up by sticky electronic beams and frozen in blocks of ice and taken to watch huge 3D Cecil B. DeMille's special motion pictures that started off with 28 days of a helicopter going round and round and round and they say "the helicopter's going to cra-ash, it's going to cra-ash".

So why you should think that the description "space aliens" applies to these entities is beyond my comprehension.



(job done - out before the ban)