Okay, I'm back from my hike. I had a realization while giving myself a locational and getting into present time.
We've been going back and forth for two days now over this "space alien" vs "body thetan" issue and the answer has been right in front of us all along. Marty Rathbun figured it out...it's not literal. It's a collateral issue and a metaphor. Don't believe it...don't believe in anything. I don't now even believe anything I've read or posted on this forum. Not literally. ESMB now stands for Ex Scientologist Metaphorical Banter.
I'm going down to Marty's place to get some non-literal, collateral processing. Even holding the cans to the e-meter is not real. It's a metaphor. I don't even believe in e-meters.
Marty says "I don't believe that stuff" (emphasis Marty) which is his "acceptable truth". What he is obviously thinking is: "It isn't 'belief', I know!!"
Peter Boyles takes him to task for "not being a Scientologist" and Marty is hosed -- he can't then say what he was thinking because that would be worse.
I'm sure he's down wid it.
two three four fivesix. OK?
My point is this; When I first witnessed Kate Ceberano tell her good friend (Kerrie-Anne, the Interviewer) what I considered to be a bald-faced lie, I was kinda surprised because anyone who had done OT 3 would know what was being referred to. I decided to look more closely at what was actually asked and what was actually said and discovered for myself how the Interviewer gave her the get-out-of-the-question-free card. Basically I wanted to understand WTF? was Kate thinking at the time.
In a 4 minute interview the alien question gets about 10 seconds and a brush-off pat PR response, the old "confusing Hubbard's science fiction with his religious works" routine.
The Interviewer asks, "What about aliens? People will say 'Hey, you believe in aliens'. Do you believe in aliens?" and Kate responds with a dismissive smile something along the lines of "I've never heard of it in all my three generations of scientology" and Lee jumps in with the pat PR answer. Did she lie or has she actually never heard aliens mentioned in scientology? We all understand what is actually being asked (and she did too) but using the word "alien" let her off the hook. I would have loved to have heard what she said to "What about Xenu? Body Thetans? Entities?". I'm guessing she would have used the 'Mick Wenlock Clause', ie. "We don't discuss our advanced beliefs outside of the confidentiality of our organizations" but she may have, just as easily, lied to her friend. The thing is, I'll never know because the Interviewer gave her the out in the wording of the question.
I haven't listened to the Marty interview, and don't really plan to unless it becomes vitally important to my continued survival, lol, but from what little I've seen reproduced here it looks like more of the same or similar line of questioning.
My point is, why give the scientologist any wiggle-room? If you want to hold scientology beliefs up for inspection and ask questions about them, use Hubbard's exact words and the actual concepts which make up those beliefs not amusing words and concepts coined by others.
As I've commented earlier, scientologists have a real problem when it comes to telling lies. They have to balance their compulsion to never False Report and always relate exact time, place, form and event with their compulsion to protect scientology at all costs, maintain Confidentiality of Materials, tell acceptable truths, invent Shore Stories etc whilst still somehow maintaining a sense of Personal Integrity.
It's a tough gig but I believe I already came up with the Scientological Law Of Lying:
In scientology, lies only ever flow downwards, they never flow up.
(Lying to yourself is not only permitted, it is mandatory!)
Last edited by Panda Termint; 25th February 2012 at 09:56 PM.
Dave Gibbons - Sydney, Australia. 34 years in scientology 1974 - 2008
No longer a scientologist.
I don't believe everything I read on the Internet.
I do believe everything I write.
I especially like this paragraph: "My point is, why give the scientologist any wiggle-room? If you want to hold scientology beliefs up for inspection and ask questions about them, use Hubbard's exact words and the actual concepts which make up those beliefs not amusing words and concepts coined by others".
And this paragraph explains Marty's approach to Peter Boyle's questions: "As I've commented earlier, scientologists have a real problem when it comes to telling lies. They have to balance their compulsion to never False Report and always relate exact time, place, form and event with their compulsion to protect scientology at all costs, maintain Confidentiality of Materials, tell acceptable truths, invent Shore Stories etc whilst still somehow maintaining a sense of Personal Integrity".
I think that he was trying a new approach by calling the Xenu/body thetan belief "metaphorical", "collateral", and that he doesn't take it "literal". Now, he got carried away by saying that he doesn't believe in anything. Maybe Rinder needs to step in and wear his old PR hat again.
Cool. I agree with everything you are saying...with one, little, eenie-weenie, itsy-bitsy exception.
Well, actually the part about "let her off the hook" might not be so itsy-bitsy.We all understand what is actually being asked (and she did too) but using the word "alien" let her off the hook.
I don't get that. How would it let a person off the hook if they deliberately changed the meaning of a question and answered something they were not asked? LOL
So, Mr. Rathbun, is it true that while you were in Scientology
you promoted violence that resulted in you and your
staff regularly beating other staff members?
No, that is a complete lie!
(Marty thinks to himself)
"Well, I did promote violence and beatings,but
that's not what he asked me. He asked me if I promoted
violins, which I never, ever did. So luckily I am off the hook!"
Last edited by HelluvaHoax!; 26th February 2012 at 12:34 AM.
Scientology literally saved my life! Without Ron's books I would have frozen to death!!! (see avatar)
Scientology in one word? HelluvaHoax!
I never felt as free as when I freed myself from "Total Freedom".
For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/201...-confessional/I audited a number of intensives of confessionals on Tom Cruise from July through November 2001. By order of Miscavige many of those sessions were secretly recorded by a well-concealed video camera and voice recorder system built into the VIP auditing room at Celebrity Center International. I was r-factored that it was for the purpose of having the CS check up on the quality of my delivery. All I knew at that time was that I forwarded the videos to my CS at Int (RTC). I was also required by Miscavige to write reports on the content of every session I delivered during that period and send them directly to Miscavige. I was told by him that he needed to know because recovering Tom to Scientology was the most important mission possible. I never received a single suggestion from Miscavige during the recovery process. He quite apparently wanted to keep his distance until the messy divorce was over and there was no chance of Scientology becoming an issue.
"he also introduced all of us and indeed he thrust us into his practises of cruelty, inhumanity, abuse and punishment, all of which he systematically reframed as positive and as requirements for enlightenment." - Hana Eltringham/Whifield speaking in Hamburg on the 28th of March 2010.
Below an interview I did at a protest in San Francisco. The interviewer asked good questions and gave me space to answer. I was of course asked about OT 3. Starts at 10 mins into the interview. I later gained even greater understanding after being referred to PAB 12.
Sadly I didn't think to bring a pink hat on my tour of the US. Sorry Ems.
My lovely blonde girlfriend was David Mayo's secretary for many years.
Was audited by him and John Galusha and other very estimable techies.