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Thread: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

  1. #421

    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    Quote Originally Posted by Lermanet_com View Post
    Scientology does not care about critics of scientology, scientology doesnt care about being a called a cult, we once thought it was whether a guy could talk about xenu...but now, 20 years later, the ONLY thing they care about and..which is the line in the sand for osa operatives, is whether or not it is a religion. ...
    And at least as importantly, Arnie, being religious in character is no proof of not being fraudulent. Religions have been doing fraud for millenia.


    Mark A. Baker
    "Hubbard is alive and well. He lives through his
    creations."
    - Purple Rain



    "Because nothing has the be true forever. Just for long enough, to tell you the truth."

    - T. Pratchett, The Truth

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  3. #422
    Sponsor Veda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A. Baker View Post
    And at least as importantly, Arnie, being religious in character is no proof of not being fraudulent. Religions have been doing fraud for millenia.


    Mark A. Baker
    The point is that Scientology is not religious in character, and its claim to be so is fraudulent.

    By the way, do you think you're accomplishing anything - in your silly multi-colored posts - by repeatedly calling those who post on ESMB "angry," etc., as in "irrational," while at the same time lecturing them on proper behavior?
    Visit the Ex Scientologist Message Board web site for selected content from ESMB and more: http://exscn.net/

  4. #423

    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    The point is that Scientology is not religious in character, and its claim to be so is fraudulent.

    By the way, do you think you're accomplishing anything - in your silly multi-colored posts - by repeatedly calling those who post on ESMB "angry," as in "irrational," while at the same time lecturing them on proper behavior?
    Umm . . . because I feel like it ?


    Mark A. Baker
    "Hubbard is alive and well. He lives through his
    creations."
    - Purple Rain



    "Because nothing has the be true forever. Just for long enough, to tell you the truth."

    - T. Pratchett, The Truth

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  6. #424
    Sponsor Veda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A. Baker View Post
    Umm . . . because I feel like it ?


    Mark A. Baker
    I didn't ask, why are you doing it; I asked, "Do you think you're accomplishing anything" by doing it.

    "It" being the repeated characterization of posters on ESMB as angry, as hateful, as irrational, etc. What do you think you're accomplished by doing that?
    Visit the Ex Scientologist Message Board web site for selected content from ESMB and more: http://exscn.net/

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  8. #425
    Gold Meritorious Patron Magoo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    The bottom line is this:

    The "church" of $cientology wants to be thought of as a "real religion".
    They told me so when I was volunteering with them, in OSA, in PR.
    It's a MAJOR goal of theirs.

    The "church" of $cientology couldn't be farther from what the average
    person thinks is a religion. I'm not saying ALL other religions are great,
    as many have their own problems, too. BUT___I think it's VERY important
    to understand the difference in a CULT and a Religion.

    Scientology---the "church" of $cientology IS a CULT: Period.
    The FACT that they are a *total* business..charging for EVERY
    SINGLE LEVEL_________Is disgusting that they have tax exemption.
    Follow the $$$$$_____There is where they'll get snagged up...just like
    Al Capone did, too.

    You can call me, Jim, if you want. I was "in" for 30 years and escaped
    out in July of 2000.

    My best

    Tory/Magoo
    www.youtube.com/ToryMagoo44
    (818) 588-3044
    For those still "in":
    "Leap and the Net will Appear"
    Make the Leap!
    Make it safely and come share your story with us

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  10. #426
    Crusader SweetnessandLight's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    Quote Originally Posted by James Beverley View Post
    Arnie,

    I don't think it is fair to accuse me of spreading OSA's lines about Scientology. What specifically do you have in mind? The only thing I can think of is me stating that I think it is a religion. That, however, does not tell us whether or not it is a fraud. Please do not confuse me with other academics, whether Gordon or Massimo or whoever. I am my own person. I have a long track record of speaking against various cult groups. I have been an expert witness in civil and criminal trials against some groups/individuals who used their religion in a fraudulent way. I have been threatened physically for my views against certain religions as well as threatened legally.
    Jim, I'm glad to hear you say this, not that I'm glad to hear that you've been threatened, but because it helps me to get a handle on where you are coming from, and how grounded you are in reality. I am delighted to have you on the board, not only has it sparked a great discussion but it helps us to see and understand the Academic perspective on COS and similar "shady" groups more. I wish we could get some more academics, journalists and law enforcement officers openly on the board expressing their viewpoints, too! Some are here but not openly so, as you are. You get major props from me for doing so!

    I understand the point of view (even though I do not hold it myself) that once people have adopted Scientology as their religion, even though done under a fraudulent basis, then a possible Academic point of view is to consider it as a religion. I will go so far as to concede that for those people who hold those beliefs about it, it is a religion to them. I also feel that they and their families and friends need to be educated about the fraudulent aspects of it, for the protection of the general public from the actions of Cult members, mainly OSA operatives and their minions.

    Please be patient with us all. Some of us have been more injured by OSA than others here. Keep in mind that you are talking to cult victims and survivors who often do have a rather large personal ax to grind. To them, this discussion is not academic, it is intensely personal! They have a right to their anger and every right to be suspicious of the motives of anyone who "forwards the enemy line", the enemy in this case being OSA operatives. It's also important not to let that shut down the conversation, which is just what OSA wants to have happen! Please try not to take it personally. Keep talking, everybody!

    I think it is also important when talking with anyone about Scientology to early take the measure of to what extent their considerations about the subject have been manipulated or influenced by the actions of OSA.

    There is an organized effort by COS to influence and involve opinion leaders in all areas of life to be pro-COS, as part of policy, this is why there are Celebrity Centers and all the front groups which work with law enforcement, business and religious leaders and elected officials on various "causes". The main goal and purpose is to make COS seem more acceptable and legitimate in the eyes of the general public and with authorities than it would be without their influence. I think this is in part the process that Arnie is referring to when he brings up the "repeater technique", which I'm sure you are already aware of. Call it a religion often enough and it will be accepted to be so, despite all evidence to the contrary. Seems to have worked for them to a very great extent in this country, which is why some of us insist on calling it a Cult, to counteract that.

    There is an old saying on this board that you have not really arrived here until somebody accuses you of being OSA... It does happen to Newbies, it happened to me! So consider it a bit of a rite of passage, and don't take too much umbrage at it. Also I think some members here are rightly probing to understand just what your viewpoints are and how best to enlighten you, if and where it is needed!

    I do think that possibly Arnie and others (although I am not speaking for them) might be exasperated with the way that OSA's lies about Scientology have seemingly penetrated Academia, members of the Justice system, law enforcement and our elected officials.

    For example:
    Human trafficking is addressed as being a serious problem which is investigated by all of the above when it comes to sex workers or migrant farm workers or sweat-shop factory workers, but not when it comes to COS Sea Org members. Why? Because they are considered to be "religious" volunteers, not laborers, and so protective labor laws evidently do not apply to them. As if by joining a "religious group" (or Cult) they give up their constitutional or human rights.

    Keep in mind that occasionally when we write, we are not only directly addressing a statement by a person on a specific issue, but sometimes we are also addressing the lurkers... all those who are reading here invisibly without joining, including OSA operatives, other former Cult members too intimidated to speak out about what they experienced yet, and the interested general public who may have a friend or loved one "in" the Cult to this day. Also we sometimes address our remarks to those unfamiliar with COS except for the Cult propaganda line about it who may be considering joining up themselves. We write to inform and persuade in addition to continuing the conversational topic. I myself frequently swing for the fences (baseball analogy for our foreign readers, meaning to slightly overreach in an effort to hit a home run out of the ball park) with my posts meant to reach and move the lurkers, in addition to directly communicating with my fellow posters on a thread.

    Now guys, Jim asked to see Ron's affirmations...can we oblige him?
    Last edited by SweetnessandLight; 6th March 2012 at 09:14 AM.
    Yes, you can fly, but first you have to break out of that cocoon. You are capable of self rescue at all times. "Every blade of grass has its own special angel watching over it and whispering, 'grow...grow'." -The Talmud "I am still determined to be cheerful and happy, in whatever situation I may be, for I have learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our disposition, and not upon our circumstances." -Martha Washington

  11. #427
    Deprogrammer Lermanet_com's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    I have a copy annotated by Ulf Brettstam, a clinical psychiatrist...confirming hubbard as a paranoid schizophrenic...

    give me a moment...

    you see lermanet got too big for a search engine... there are 15000 files
    Last edited by Lermanet_com; 6th March 2012 at 09:24 AM.
    The Inventor of the E-Meter, Volney Matheson describes how Hubbard got you: LINK

    How to become an Expert Operator(c) 1931 30 Mb pdf

    "Contrary to general belief, it has been my experience that the more intelligent the subject, the easier it is to induce hypnosis" Ralph Slater - "Hypnotism" May 1950 Large PDF of entire book

    The secret of Dianetics

  12. #428
    Silver Meritorious Sponsor HelluvaHoax!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    The point is that Scientology is not religious in character, and its claim to be so is fraudulent.

    By the way, do you think you're accomplishing anything - in your silly multi-colored posts - by repeatedly calling those who post on ESMB "angry," etc., as in "irrational," while at the same time lecturing them on proper behavior?
    "Angry" is the new "Hater".

    "Hater" was the new "SP"

    "SP" was the new "1.1"

    "1.1" was the new "Communist"

    "OSA" was the new "GO"

    Etc, etc, etc.......

    This is Hubbardism 101. Got a problem because people have caught on to your spinning propaganda lies? No problem, just change the words.

    Mark knows better than to call people 1.1 or SP's. Or haters--Indies copyrighted that one.

    So let's give Mark credit for at least trying.

    It's a shame you blew the whistle on his multicolored "angry" marketing scheme so quickly, he only got about a week's worth of use out of it.

    Mark, go back to your Thesaurus. There are plenty of other words you can try.
    ________________________

    Scientology literally saved my life! Without Ron's books I would have frozen to death!!! (see avatar)

    Scientology in one word? HelluvaHoax!

    I never felt as free as when I freed myself from "Total Freedom".

    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

  13. #429
    Deprogrammer Lermanet_com's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    The Admissions of L Ron Hubbard, evaluated by a Clinical Psychiatrist (In Sweden)

    (The commentary is priceless, this is a MUST read document, it is too long to post here, this doc is also linked from her own pages on her Narconon page, Ulf has helped tremendously fighting narconon in sweden feel to quote you favorite excerpts)

    UB: SUMMARY

    There is little question about LRH suffering from paranoic
    schizophrenia at the time he wrote the above. Predominant symptoms are
    auditive and likely visual hallucinations together with numbed emotions
    , suicidal thoughts , extremely low selfworth, impotence , thought
    disturbances and problems with articulation and memory. His fatigue and
    indolence together with the anhedonia is the typical low energy , low
    vigilance and numbed emotions found in the domaine of so called
    negative symtoms in this disease . He is fighting a hard battle with
    inner psychological conflicts, balancing between the depressed state
    with suicidal thoughts and the Godlike, allmighty powerful
    "chosen" one with special gifts and blessed with an inner
    "Guardian". The Church of Scientology and its methods is merely the
    reflection of this seriously sick mans inner world. Constantly on guard
    against percieved critique and attacks from the hostile surrounding
    environments. Obsessed with money , not only as a mean of survival but
    as an instrument of power and evidence of success.

    Ulf Brettstam
    Senior psychiatrist

    The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this
    bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder [L. Ron
    Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a
    pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and
    achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally
    reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness
    and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or
    hostile."

    -- Judge Paul G. Breckenridge, Jr., 6/20/84 (Scientology v. Armstrong,
    affirmed on appeal 232 Cal.App.3rd 1060, 283 Cal.Rptr. 917.)
    Last edited by Lermanet_com; 6th March 2012 at 09:32 AM.
    The Inventor of the E-Meter, Volney Matheson describes how Hubbard got you: LINK

    How to become an Expert Operator(c) 1931 30 Mb pdf

    "Contrary to general belief, it has been my experience that the more intelligent the subject, the easier it is to induce hypnosis" Ralph Slater - "Hypnotism" May 1950 Large PDF of entire book

    The secret of Dianetics

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  15. #430
    Silver Meritorious Patron Outethicsofficer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetnessandLight View Post
    Jim, I'm glad to hear you say this, not that I'm glad to hear that you've been threatened, but because it helps me to get a handle on where you are coming from, and how grounded you are in reality. I am delighted to have you on the board, not only has it sparked a great discussion but it helps us to see and understand the Academic perspective on COS and similar "shady" groups more. I wish we could get some more academics, journalists and law enforcement officers openly on the board expressing their viewpoints, too! Some are here but not openly so, as you are. You get major props from me for doing so!

    I understand the point of view (even though I do not hold it myself) that once people have adopted Scientology as their religion, even though done under a fraudulent basis, then a possible Academic point of view is to consider it as a religion. I will go so far as to concede that for those people who hold those beliefs about it, it is a religion to them. I also feel that they and their families and friends need to be educated about the fraudulent aspects of it, for the protection of the general public from the actions of Cult members, mainly OSA operatives and their minions.

    Please be patient with us all. Some of us have been more injured by OSA than others here. Keep in mind that you are talking to cult victims and survivors who often do have a rather large personal ax to grind. To them, this discussion is not academic, it is intensely personal! They have a right to their anger and every right to be suspicious of the motives of anyone who "forwards the enemy line", the enemy in this case being OSA operatives. It's also important not to let that shut down the conversation, which is just what OSA wants to have happen! Please try not to take it personally. Keep talking, everybody!

    I think it is also important when talking with anyone about Scientology to early take the measure of to what extent their considerations about the subject have been manipulated or influenced by the actions of OSA.

    There is an organized effort by COS to influence and involve opinion leaders in all areas of life to be pro-COS, as part of policy, this is why there are Celebrity Centers and all the front groups which work with law enforcement, business and religious leaders and elected officials on various "causes". The main goal and purpose is to make COS seem more acceptable and legitimate in the eyes of the general public and with authorities than it would be without their influence. I think this is in part the process that Arnie is referring to when he brings up the "repeater technique", which I'm sure you are already aware of. Call it a religion often enough and it will be accepted to be so, despite all evidence to the contrary. Seems to have worked for them to a very great extent in this country, which is why some of us insist on calling it a Cult, to counteract that.

    There is an old saying on this board that you have not really arrived here until somebody accuses you of being OSA... It does happen to Newbies, it happened to me! So consider it a bit of a rite of passage, and don't take too much umbrage at it. Also I think some members here are rightly probing to understand just what your viewpoints are and how best to enlighten you, if and where it is needed!

    I do think that possibly Arnie and others (although I am not speaking for them) might be exasperated with the way that OSA's lies about Scientology have seemingly penetrated Academia, members of the Justice system, law enforcement and our elected officials.

    Human trafficking is addressed as being a serious problem which is investigated by all of the above when it comes to sex workers or migrant farm workers or sweat-shop factory workers, but not when it comes to COS Sea Org members. Why? Because they are considered to be "religious" volunteers, not laborers, and so protective labor laws evidently do not apply to them. As if by joining a "religious group" (or Cult) they give up their constitutional or human rights.

    Keep in mind that occasionally when we write, we are not only directly addressing a statement by a person on a specific issue, but sometimes we are also addressing the lurkers... all those who are reading here invisibly without joining, including OSA operatives, other former Cult members too intimidated to speak out about what they experienced yet, and the interested general public who may have a friend or loved one "in" the Cult to this day. Also we sometimes address our remarks to those unfamiliar with COS except for the Cult propaganda line about it who may be considering joining up themselves. We write to inform and persuade in addition to continuing the conversational topic. I myself frequently swing for the fences (baseball analogy for our foreign readers, meaning to slightly overreach in an effort to hit a home run out of the ball park) with my posts meant to reach and move the lurkers, in addition to directly communicating with my fellow posters on a thread.

    Now guys, Jim asked to see Ron's affirmations...can we oblige him?
    And now I completely understand why you are Sweetness and Light
    Rather the purpose is to make new scientologists.
    And that is what they are trying to fool libraries, businesses and schools into helping them do - spread Scientology and make new scientologists.

    Thanks to Lawrence Brennan for the above quote.

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