Page 3 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 105

Thread: The "SP case"

  1. #21
    Gold Meritorious Patron Alan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Montague, Texas
    Posts
    3,303

    Default

    Most games have at least two sides to them.

    Depending which side you are on usually defines the 'good guys' or the 'bad guys.'

    These are LRHs definitions of SP from the Tech Dictionary:

    SUPPRESSIVE PERSON, 1. he’s solving a present time problem which hasn’t in actual fact existed for the last many trillenia in most cases, and yet he is taking the actions in present time which solve that problem. The guy’s totally stuck in present time, that is the whole anatomy of psychosis. (SH Spec 61, 6505C18)

    2 . a person who rewards only down statistics and never rewards an up statistic. He goofs up or vilifies any effort to help anybody and particularly knifes with violence anything calculated to make human beings more powerful or intelligent.

    A suppressive automatically and immediately will curve any betterment activity into something evil or bad. (SH Spec 73, 6608C02)

    3 . a person who doesn’t get case gain because of continuing overts. (SH Spec 67, 6509C21)

    4 . the person is in a mad, howling situation of some yesteryear and is “handling it” by committing overt acts today. I say condition of yesteryear but this case thinks it’s today.(HCO PL 5 Apr 65)

    5 . an SP is a no-confront case because, not being in his own valence he has no viewpoint from which to erase anything. That is all an SP is. (HCO PL 20 Oct 67)

    6. those who are destructively antisocial. (HCO PL 30 Aug 70)

    7 . a person with certain behavior characteristics and who suppresses other
    people in his vicinity and those other people when he suppresses them become PTS or potential trouble sources. (SH Spec 78, 6608C25)

    8 . is one that actively seeks to suppress or damage Scn or a Scientologist by suppressive acts. (ISE, p. 48)

    9 . a person who has had a counter-postualte to the pc you are handling. (SH Spec 68, 6510C14) Abbr. SP

    The truth is what it is - not what you want it to be.


    http://knowledgism.com/alan/default.asp

  2. #22
    Patron Meritorious Ralph Hilton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Semmering, Austria
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lionheart View Post

    My first observation of the RPF was over 30 years ago. I wouldn't describe it as benign. The food was always and only left-over scraps scraped of the other staff member's plates. The schedule was regular but extremely tough. Sleep was inadequate. Hygene was appalling. The work was productive in that it was digging foundations for the Castle extension, but it was extremely harsh, akin to ancient slave labour. The RPF that I observed 30 years ago was deliberately degrading and designed to be so on LRH instruction. Maybe he was asking to be put on it himself!
    Perhaps it was what he needed. DM certainly does.
    I did the RPF at Flag in 1978 with Mike Rinder's wife, Cathy, as my twin.
    It took 6 or 7 months. The food we all had was the same as the rest of the staff. Staff married to RPFers usually ate with the RPF and didn't complain. I worked in the kitchen for a while when on the RPF and observed that we always had food of similar quality to that which the officers mess received.
    Ronnie Rathburn, who was one of the cooks, always ensured that even if the main course which the crew received ran out then we got something of comparable quality and could even at times raid the main freezers to ensure that the RPF had adequate food. We never at any time ate scraps.
    We had a sane schedule. There weren't problems with hygiene.
    What you experienced was obviously different from my experience and whoever inflicted that upon the UK RPF is a criminal.

  3. #23
    Patron Meritorious Ralph Hilton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Semmering, Austria
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Bear Victor View Post
    Wow -- that's quite a statement. When was the last time you met this individual in person?
    I am certain you would never get him to sit down in a PC chair to hold the cans to begin with.
    V
    I didn't meet him personally. I met his parents and his brother.
    I can see him in the videos.
    He'd need to be in an RPF type environment with an MAA to restrain his ev. purps. For his crimes he should be placed in an environment where he can no longer victimize others. If that is a safe environment then his case can be handled. If he can be taken to the realization that his suppressive game is over then he is salvageable. Some of us have done just as evil things in earlier times as DM does now. I have and I'm here now and helping people with Scientology.

  4. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    14,232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Hilton View Post
    Perhaps it was what he needed. DM certainly does.
    I did the RPF at Flag in 1978 with Mike Rinder's wife, Cathy, as my twin.
    It took 6 or 7 months. The food we all had was the same as the rest of the staff. Staff married to RPFers usually ate with the RPF and didn't complain. I worked in the kitchen for a while when on the RPF and observed that we always had food of similar quality to that which the officers mess received.
    Ronnie Rathburn, who was one of the cooks, always ensured that even if the main course which the crew received ran out then we got something of comparable quality and could even at times raid the main freezers to ensure that the RPF had adequate food. We never at any time ate scraps.
    We had a sane schedule. There weren't problems with hygiene.
    What you experienced was obviously different from my experience and whoever inflicted that upon the UK RPF is a criminal.
    Actually, if anyone would ever allow themselves to see information from outside sources such as the Stanford Prison Experiment, then someone might have twigged that it was inevitable that the RPF would turn into a nightmare.

    But nooooo. We do only what LRH says....

  5. #25
    Gold Meritorious Patron lionheart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,891

    Default

    Ralph and Jim's idea that SP is not absolute is interesting. Can I just clarify, is there an LRH reference anywhere that says that? I don't recall one. HCOPL The Anti Social Personality grants that people do sometimes have some characteristics and can think they are an SP. But from what I recall, an SP was an SP end of story. The rest were not SPs.

    Personally I agree with Alanzo that the whole SP thing was the creation of enemies to fight. Plus it was a control mechanism to isolate dissidents and bring waiverers back into line.

    Was a list one R/Ser an SP acording to Ron? I'm not sure of any reference that exactly said so. I understand that according to Ron an SP would be an R/Ser. but did he say that all list one R/sers were SPs?

    I understand the theory of how an SP would be handled. But surely any identified SP, so labelled by Ron or his tech, was never actually audited because it was out tech and out ethics to audit one.

    Not sure what actual test cases were behind his various claims over the years that SPs could now be handled. Was it theoretical or practically proven?
    Last edited by lionheart; 28th November 2007 at 10:48 PM.
    "There is a Reality which is Indivisible, One, Alone, the Source and Being of all; not a thing, nor even a mind, but pure Spirit or clear Consciousness; and we are That and nothing but That, for That is our true Nature; and the only way to find It is to look steadily within, where are to be found utmost peace, unfading joy, and eternal life itself." (Douglas Harding)

  6. #26
    Gold Meritorious Patron lionheart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Hilton View Post
    Perhaps it was what he needed. DM certainly does.
    I did the RPF at Flag in 1978 with Mike Rinder's wife, Cathy, as my twin.
    It took 6 or 7 months. The food we all had was the same as the rest of the staff. Staff married to RPFers usually ate with the RPF and didn't complain. I worked in the kitchen for a while when on the RPF and observed that we always had food of similar quality to that which the officers mess received.
    Ronnie Rathburn, who was one of the cooks, always ensured that even if the main course which the crew received ran out then we got something of comparable quality and could even at times raid the main freezers to ensure that the RPF had adequate food. We never at any time ate scraps.
    We had a sane schedule. There weren't problems with hygiene.
    What you experienced was obviously different from my experience and whoever inflicted that upon the UK RPF is a criminal.
    You were just a bunch of namby-pamby soft squirrels!

    The standard RPF tech was inflicted on the UK by LRH. Yours was diluted by squirrel SPs!
    "There is a Reality which is Indivisible, One, Alone, the Source and Being of all; not a thing, nor even a mind, but pure Spirit or clear Consciousness; and we are That and nothing but That, for That is our true Nature; and the only way to find It is to look steadily within, where are to be found utmost peace, unfading joy, and eternal life itself." (Douglas Harding)

  7. #27
    Silver Meritorious Patron Little Bear Victor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Far far away
    Posts
    1,045

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Logan View Post
    At LBV's request I have something to post on this. A full understanding of what is actually meant by "SP" is necessary to understanding how and by what means it is to be handled. That I will not go into here as there are adequate materials covering the entire premise and resolution means.

    The basic however is the idea that at the exact moment a being begins to stop something, he begins the build up of a mass/energy phenomenon. If he continues then this area of building up 'charge' builds up. Now, the original thing that was a confusion, or something perceived as antipathetic to the being is one side and his answer to it, his solution, his decision, his consideration, his effort to stop this perceived antipathy is the other side of this two terminal item. It is like a battery now, or a capacitor, the two terminals held apart. Now he's got more or less of a problem as defined in the tech dictionary.

    Expand the above mechanics to a generalized stop on many fronts as the being more and more considers other actions antipathetic in a similar fashion, that is, A=A, and add a solution of overts to 'solve this problem' and put it on automatic and we are approaching the manifestation of "SP". ( The above is a very much shorthanded description mind you and is definitely not meant as a substitute for a full description of the mechanics as goes below for the handling).

    The simplicity of handling is to get the original incident of antipathy, and aid the being to come off the stop and allow him to as-is the confusion, antipathy, counter-survival situation, and as-is his 'solution' which was a non duplication in the first place. He then no longer has anything to 'solve' with present time overts. He isn't bonkers on the area but can have full ARC and thus understanding and vanquish this mechanical aspect of existence, this 'battery'.

    Many means exist to get at this and they are done at various levels including FPRD, EXDN, Power, and others.

    Getting the guy to actually do these tech handlings sometimes requires the necessary restraint of the perpetual fight he is in solving this and that's what the ethics aspect is all about. Hold the fort long enough to get the tech in and then there is no need to further restrain something that isn't there.

    Not only have I seen the above in many cases, I have myself experienced my own personal handling of my own personal Evil Intentions that I was using to 'solve' some area. I was bonkers on the area and had my wits tangled and I acted 'suppressively'.

    As Ralph cogently points out, even the SP case isn't absolute and it takes greater or lesser handling in each instance.

    My own experience, which is corroborated in the actual LRH materials, has been that in thousands of separate experiences of having someone on an emeter I have run across a single, genuine, and verified R/S on any of the List One topics. This was manifest in behavior with all that entails. That person was handled according to the data and put through all the way to the steps of NOTs as a complete cover of it.

    This person is without question a person I admire greatly and I would say a screaming success in life. So, without hestitation or doubt, I have seen an SP, by definition, handled fully and they are by no means an SP now and are in fact a wonderful contributing member of this society. It was an extremely simple and effective resolution of their debilitating struggle, freeing the being to live and act in the present with no 'solution' needed as there was no more problem. Jim
    Again, please note, what I have described above is in no way meant as a substitute for a full study and grasp of the body of materials on SPs, EPurps, Problem, Prior Confusion, the Itsa Line or anything else.
    Hi Jim,

    Thanks. It's a bit of a joke trying to bring up this subject in a place where just about everyone is a declared "SP," but there certainly are people in existence that don't have the best interests of others in their hearts.

    I have a bit different view on what a "real SP" would be; to me there is a gradient of people from the very social to the very antisocial (antisocial is a much better descriptive word that a suppressive, IMO). In that gradient you could draw a theoretical line where it goes too far. Where it goes too far is where the person causes more harm than good to people around him. But even that is far from a "2.5% SP."

    To me the problem lies in the area of not being able to look at something from another's viewpoint. When this goes too far, the individual really believes he is the only person in existence and it means absolutely nothing to him how others feel, what they experience, etc.

    I doubt anyone actually is born with that problem (or it is a disappearingly small fraction of a percentage) but learn, due to experiences in this life -- which may have their roots in previous lifetimes -- to become so. I am of the opinion that the environment the person grows up in has everything to do with it.

    I would go so far as to assume the real SP does not believe anyone else exists because he can observe his own senses only and cannot extend (due to lack of sympathy or some such issue) that observation beyond his own physical body. Everything outside of it is really already "dead" or totally unreal to him. Possibly this includes himself in the worst cases -- which I would assume insane.

    It is in no way a black-and-white matter as I see it. People are somewhere along the gradient between social and antisocial, not purely one or the other. Stopping things hardly makes one antisocial. Of course obsessively stopping everything in sight is insane, but I can't see that as the underlying cause for antisocial behavior. Being unable to see from another's viewpoint could do it.

    Hardly worth mentioning, "violation of Scientology ethics codes" has got next to nothing to do with it.

    I'm not sure what my point in posing this question is, except for possibly trying to get some sort of an idea of what could be done if the promises of Scientology were put into practice sensibly.

    Or that lingering hope that the workable parts could somehow be extricated out of Scientology and be put in practice.

    Or that it is late and I need to go to sleep.
    Will that be cash, cheque or credit card?

  8. #28
    Gold Meritorious Patron lionheart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Hilton View Post
    How would you classify those who flew planes into the twin towers? Those who sentence a 19 year old girl to 200 lashes and 6 months in jail after being raped by 7 men? Those who rape children?

    There are SPs around. Whether Hubbard's descriptions are more accurate than those in DSM IV is up for discussion but not the fact that they exist.
    Suppose those who flew the planes were just friends who have lost a little too often?

    Suppose there are no SPs? What would that mean? I think the fact that SPs exist is very much up for discussion.

    If SPs don't exist, then what exactly is the nature of "evil"?

    Suppose we are all brothers, all friends, all an aspect of the universe. What would that mean?
    Last edited by lionheart; 28th November 2007 at 11:21 PM.
    "There is a Reality which is Indivisible, One, Alone, the Source and Being of all; not a thing, nor even a mind, but pure Spirit or clear Consciousness; and we are That and nothing but That, for That is our true Nature; and the only way to find It is to look steadily within, where are to be found utmost peace, unfading joy, and eternal life itself." (Douglas Harding)

  9. #29
    Gold Meritorious Patron Alan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Montague, Texas
    Posts
    3,303

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lionheart View Post

    Ralph and Jim's idea that SP is not absolute is interesting. Can I just clarify, is there an LRH reference anywhere that says that? I don't recall one. HCOPL The Anti Social Personality grants that people do sometimes have some characteristics and can think they are an SP. But from what I recal,l an SP was an SP end of story. The rest were not SPs.

    Personally I agree with Alanzo that the whole SP thing was the creation of enemies to fight. Plus it was a control mechanism to isolate dissidents and bring waiverers back into line.

    Was a list one R/Ser an SP acording to Ron? I'm not sure of any reference that exactly said so. I understand that according to Ron an SP would be an R/Ser. but did he say that all list one R/sers were SPs?

    I understand the theory of how an SP would be handled. But surely any identified SP, so labelled by Ron or his tech, was never actually audited because it was out tech and out ethics to audit one.

    Not sure what actual test cases were behind his various claims over the years that SPs could now be handled. Was it theoretical or practically proven?
    There is no doubt that the subject of SP was used to manipulate and control people.

    It got so bad that Scio has gone completely effect of it.

    It is easy to handle SP identities.

    But you have to be willing to fully be one!

    The stupidity that seems to be held in place is that there is only one SP identity on a case.....when in fact there are millions of them!

    Further the more powerful SP identities often span 10,000s of years in creation.

    To erase those you have to be able to span that much time and space.

    ExDn, FPRD, Power PRs are at best key-out processes.

    SP identities get their power from your OWN power identities.

    R2-12 was possibly the closest rundown that handled SP identities in Scio. But that was very hit or miss.

    Alan
    The truth is what it is - not what you want it to be.


    http://knowledgism.com/alan/default.asp

  10. #30
    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    North-East England
    Posts
    23,892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lionheart View Post
    My first observation of the RPF was over 30 years ago. I wouldn't describe it as benign. The food was always and only left-over scraps scraped of the other staff member's plates. The schedule was regular but extremely tough. Sleep was inadequate. Hygene was appalling. The work was productive in that it was digging foundations for the Castle extension, but it was extremely harsh, akin to ancient slave labour. The RPF that I observed 30 years ago was deliberately degrading and designed to be so on LRH instruction. Maybe he was asking to be put on it himself!

    I think it may have become slightly more benign after it had been in use for a while. But when I first saw it, it was a freshly exported technology of Ron's from the Flagship.
    I was on the RPF for a few weeks at SH around October 1979. There was an amnesty and we all got off, hence the short time.

    We worked on the Castle extension; cleaning toilets; sometimes the car park. The work was hard but not brutal. The schedule was acceptable, with study time and enough sleep to be studentable/sessionable. The food was the same as the regular crew, not leftovers. Hygiene was OK apart from berthing arrangements. We slept in the damp boathouse by the scummy pond at Stonelands, definitely not up to building codes.

    So it had got better there than from earlier times.

    Paul

Page 3 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •