TR0 drills are entirely different from Buddha's Vipassana

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Do you believe all those words? Can you observe what is actually going on?

I'd like to think so. Having audited people, all I ever did was to ask them a question, wait for them to look for the answer, not interrupt or distract them, and acknowledge their response. Then ask the next question. They were never under my (or on a via) or Hubbard's hypnotic control. Totally voluntarly looking for answers. I dunno dude. It's pretty damn simple.

Mimsey

[Vinaire]

I'd like to think so. Having audited people, all I ever did was to ask them a question, wait for them to look for the answer, not interrupt or distract them, and acknowledge their response. Then ask the next question. They were never under my (or on a via) or Hubbard's hypnotic control. Totally voluntarly looking for answers. I dunno dude. It's pretty damn simple.

Mimsey

I think that auditing at the lower levels is pretty straight forward and helpful; but as one goes up the grade chart, the factor of conditioning starts to enter in. Beyond Clear, on OT levels, conditioning becomes very prominent.

What percentage of people on OT levels become humble, tolerant, broader in their worldview, and knowledgeable? Do they become more rational and statesmanlike? Do they start shunning vain glory and status?

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[Mimsey Borogrove]

Yes, they have conditioning or whatever mores they expect you to uphold to be on the upper levels. That is a really good question about the good humble OT's and it would be an interesting study to compare the OTs of yesteryear with those of today. I would like to know what influence stress has. For me, back in the 70's when I was on R-6ew - ot3 there was a micron of stress compared to what I went through on 7, however that is just me. There were plenty of ots on the level (7)who (to my eye anyway) seemed care and stress free. Goals to be statesmen? I doubt it because of the prejudice against the wog world within the Scio orbit.

Mimsey

[Gadfly]

I think that auditing at the lower levels is pretty straight forward and helpful; but as one goes up the grade chart, the factor of conditioning starts to enter in. Beyond Clear, on OT levels, conditioning becomes very prominent.

What percentage of people on OT levels become humble, tolerant, broader in their worldview, and knowledgeable? Do they become more rational and statesmanlike? Do they start shunning vain glory and status?

This brings up the basic dichotomy in spiritual paths.

On the one side is the path to God (Yoga - union with the Divine). This involves losing self, and merging into something bigger than your individuated, separate "self". This involves letting go of the "personal", and all of the factors (desire, urges, motivations, inclinations, preferences, etc.) that prevent one from "being with or as God". This is the Right-Handed Path, and involves aims to help reduce the suffering of others, to behave compassionately to all, and to extend tolerance and understanding to all. Unequivocally, and unconditionally. This is the path of light, or "white magic".

On the other side is the path of "personal power and gain". It is all about "me". Or, it is all about "my group". It is restrictive, and creates separation. It often involves nurtring an elitist attitude, especially as the student improves abilities and awareness (for real or in the imagination). This is the Left-Handed Path, and is all about increasing in power and ability for SELF - for ones ego. This is the "dark side", or "black magic". It involves expanding power and control over others, as a way to acheive "personal goals". It may even involve attaining actual "advanced abilities", as a way to trick, deceive, manipulate and control others less advanced or knowledgable.

The Right-Handed Path is NOT concerned with interests of the self above others, and aims to view all others AS SELF. It promotes a humble attitude, tolerance toward others, and little interest in status or glory.

The Left-Handed Path (including Scientology) is VERY MUCH concerned with the interests of the self (and group), quite above the interests of all others, and takes a condescending view towards others (i.e. "wogs", "DBs", "SPs", "downstats", "out-ethics scum", "other practices", etc.), thus promoting separation, conflict and division. It promotes a haughty attitude (look at Hubbard as the model of THAT), intolerance to ALL other views, and constantly pushes personal interest in status and glory (look at the dumb IAS ceremonies and events).

I agree that there is benefit to be had in the LOWER levels of Scientology. I had many. But, the "movement" and philosophy of "expanding" nullify those quickly. The necessary extreme indoctrination into KSW ideas nullifies the benefits of the lower Bridge. And, the upper Bridge largely involves the acceptance of fictions by the human imagination, that probably has known and unknown NEGATIVE results.

Note: The above delineates the two "extremes". In reality, various religions, paths of spirituality and practices often involve some combination of the two. Or, such a practice or subject lies somewhere between the two extremes. But, to me, it is best to aspire to the Right-Handed Path.

[Vinaire]

Excellent, Gadfly.

Here is a synopsis of Chapter 14 of Buddha's Diamond Sutra:

Chapter 14 declares that form is not form, and all living beings are, in fact, not living beings. Notions of selfhood, other selves, living beings, or a universal self are all arbitrary. Holding onto arbitrary conception as to one’s own selfhood, will be holding onto something that is non-existent. It is the same with all arbitrary conceptions of other selves, living beings, or a universal self. The mind should be kept independent of any thoughts that might arise within it. Buddhas are Buddhas because they have been able to discard all arbitrary conceptions of form and phenomena, they have transcended all perceptions, and have penetrated the illusion of all forms.

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[BardoThodol]

On the subject of being there, I loved the process, "Put your hands against mine, follow them and contribute to their motion." (Might have gotten the wording wrong, but I gave up using the wording a long time ago.)

I would use this with friends. We would just sit down on the grass, hands against one another's, moving, creating motion, contributing, following, leading.... Completely without words.

Just being there with one another.

An amazing experience.

Then one day, I realized how much of life followed this pattern. How you could put your heart against another's, follow it and contribute to its motion. Nothing verbal need occur. No commands. No need to control.

Or put your soul against another's. Each creating motion, following, leading.

So much beauty to be experienced in just...experiencing.

To just be there is fine, but ultimately...why?

Without the creation and the dance of motion, just being there becomes an emptiness. I prefer the interchange.

Which applies to those who merely lurk.

Put your ideas against ours, follow them and contribute to their motion.

(I realize that reeks of Scientology and processing, but sometimes...)

[Vinaire]

On the subject of being there, I loved the process, "Put your hands against mine, follow them and contribute to their motion." (Might have gotten the wording wrong, but I gave up using the wording a long time ago.)

I would use this with friends. We would just sit down on the grass, hands against one another's, moving, creating motion, contributing, following, leading.... Completely without words.

Just being there with one another.

An amazing experience.

Then one day, I realized how much of life followed this pattern. How you could put your heart against another's, follow it and contribute to its motion. Nothing verbal need occur. No commands. No need to control.

Or put your soul against another's. Each creating motion, following, leading.

So much beauty to be experienced in just...experiencing.

To just be there is fine, but ultimately...why?

Without the creation and the dance of motion, just being there becomes an emptiness. I prefer the interchange.

Which applies to those who merely lurk.

Put your ideas against ours, follow them and contribute to their motion.

(I realize that reeks of Scientology and processing, but sometimes...)

What is wrong with Scientology and its processing?

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[Gadfly]

What is wrong with Scientology and its processing?

If anybody (including you) bothers to LOOK at Scientology, at both the subject and practices, exercising even just a little "differentiation", one can and will find MANY things "wrong with Scientology".

ESMB is a treasure trove of detailed examples of "what is wrong with Scientology".

You know Vin, I start to take you seriously for a few days, and then you (once again, as you have done SO MANY times in the past) come out with something ridiculous like the above. What is the purpose of such a comment and question? You KNOW what is wrong with Scientology. Why ask such a thing?

There can be a positive side to SOME of the Scientology processes, for SOME people, at some moments of their lives, but usually ONLY if taken FAR OUT of the context of the whole larger subject of Scientology and traditional practices of the Church of Scientology.

What is wrong with Scientology?

To start, it is an extreme form of mind control, created by a pompous buffoon (Hubbard) for the apparent purpose of manipulating others to bring wealth, power, admiration to Hubbard. It was his vehicle to "smash his name into hstory".

Scientology, a great deal of both the subject and practice, is designed to deceive, manipulate, lie, abuse, cheat and "drain" any member of all money, time, energy and LIFE. It is a system that entirely ignores "truth" in favor of "agreement", belief, "conviction", faith and "certainty". It messes up minds and it messes up lives - - over, and over and over. Did I say it was an extreme form on mind control?

Scientology is a large pussy smelly boil on the wrinkly ass of all cultdom.

What is wrong with Scientology?

Oh, also, instead of Scientology having a decent and sensible set of goals, such as "enlightenment", "increasing awareness", "reducing ego", "harmony", "peace", "helping others", "increasing compassion", "bringing about tolerance", "charity" and "forgiveness", it instead heavily concentrates, in both theory and practices on EXPANDING THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY (far above the various lesser and PR goals that only exist as bait 'n switch trickery). Everything in Scientology aligns with THAT top and senior goal - as set and pushed by Hubbard in exact policy.

No matter what value some isolated ideas and practices might have, when these are presented within the framework of Hubbard's whole subject, they are toxic to any mind or life.

Of course Vin, if your comment was total sarcasm (which is often difficult to "see" in any post), I agree completely.

[Vinaire]

If anybody (including you) bothers to LOOK at Scientology, at both the subject and practices, exercising even just a little "differentiation", one can and will find MANY things "wrong with Scientology".

ESMB is a treasure trove of detailed examples of "what is wrong with Scientology".

You know Vin, I start to take you seriously for a few days, and then you (once again, as you have done SO MANY times in the past) come out with something ridiculous like the above. What is the purpose of such a comment and question? You KNOW what is wrong with Scientology. Why ask such a thing?

There can be a positive side to SOME of the Scientology processes, for SOME people, at some moments of their lives, but usually ONLY if taken FAR OUT of the context of the whole larger subject of Scientology and traditional practices of the Church of Scientology.

What is wrong with Scientology?

To start, it is an extreme form of mind control, created by a pompous buffoon (Hubbard) for the apparent purpose of manipulating others to bring wealth, power, admiration to Hubbard. It was his vehicle to "smash his name into hstory".

Scientology, a great deal of both the subject and practice, is designed to deceive, manipulate, lie, abuse, cheat and "drain" any member of all money, time, energy and LIFE. It is a system that entirely ignores "truth" in favor of "agreement", belief, "conviction", faith and "certainty". It messes up minds and it messes up lives - - over, and over and over. Did I say it was an extreme form on mind control?

Scientology is a large pussy smelly boil on the wrinkly ass of all cultdom.

What is wrong with Scientology?

Oh, also, instead of Scientology having a decent and sensible set of goals, such as "enlightenment", "increasing awareness", "reducing ego", "harmony", "peace", "helping others", "increasing compassion", "bringing about tolerance", "charity" and "forgiveness", it instead heavily concentrates, in both theory and practices on EXPANDING THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY (far above the various lesser and PR goals that only exist as bait 'n switch trickery). Everything in Scientology aligns with THAT top and senior goal - as set and pushed by Hubbard in exact policy.

No matter what value some isolated ideas and practices might have, when these are presented within the framework of Hubbard's whole subject, they are toxic to any mind or life.

Of course Vin, if your comment was total sarcasm (which is often difficult to "see" in any post), I agree completely.

Gotcha, Gadfly!

That was a tongue in cheek question to Mr. BardoThodol who I find to be quite ambivalent toward both Scientology and Buddhism.

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[Mimsey Borogrove]

Scientology, a great deal of both the subject and practice, is designed to deceive, manipulate, lie, abuse, cheat and "drain" any member of all money, time, energy and LIFE. It is a system that entirely ignores "truth" in favor of "agreement", belief, "conviction", faith and "certainty". It messes up minds and it messes up lives - - over, and over and over. Did I say it was an extreme form on mind control?

Gadfly my friend, have you gotten bitter lately? I seem to recall a year ago you were less harsh - you recounted wins you have had from your auditing, etc. Now you seem to think the subject is the work of the devil. Or an uber smart buffoon.

An uber smart buffoon? That is Scientology incarnate: good and bad, help and slavery, truth and lies. For Scientology to have gotten as far as it did, it must have delivered something of value, it must have some redeeming qualities. If it were as bad as you portray there would be no inde movement - no one trying to continue delivering it.

To me, the problem is the conflicted nature of the subject: it, like Hubbard himself, is going in two opposite directions at once. So the problem becomes: how does one separate the lies from the truth? Is it even worth the effort? Or, as many on this board have done: thrown it over the gunnels of their lives, not wanting to waste more time with it.

I will say this, which is more in line with what you say, that with DM at the helm, it has gone in a suicidal direction, of not attempting the delivery of product like Hubbard did, but to fleece as many people of as much money as possible.

Mimsey