Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 44

Thread: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

  1. #31
    Silver Meritorious Patron Petey C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Mostly in my head
    Posts
    1,344

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    Good provacative post, Scoots!

    I reject the Tone Scale entirely as it is a frame that restricts the way I see the world. There's no "up" or "down" to moods, emotions, etc. There's only a range of possibilities from "is" to "isn't". Anger is no less important than apathy or exhilaration and is no higher or lower. I am convinced Hubbard was wrong (no! really?) in trying to model emotions on a north-south pole with some emotions/reactions somehow "better" than others. To me, there are just appropriate and inappropriate emotional responses to various internal and external states or causes.

    The height of absurdity is when Hubbard plots various tones in incredible detail, eg 0.98 Despair, 0.96 Terror. Where the hell does that come from!!! How about Pity, Shame and Accountable (surely a good thing?) being below body death? What's wrong with shame, then? It's a perfectly good response to certain sorts of situations.

    This rant is not directed at you, Scoots, just at the insane stupidity of the Hubbard Tone Scale. (I of course constantly sit at Serenity of Beingness.)

  2. Likes AngeloV, Freeminds liked this post
  3. #32
    Sponsor Vinaire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    I live in Tampa Bay, Florida, USA
    Posts
    12,749

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    From Wikipedia:

    Feeling is the nominalization of the verb to feel. The word was first used in the English language to describe the physical sensation of touch through either experience or perception. The word is also used to describe experiences, other than the physical sensation of touch, such as "a feeling of warmth". In psychology, the word is usually reserved for the conscious subjective experience of emotion.

    Emotion is a complex psychophysiological experience of an individual's state of mind as interacting with biochemical (internal) and environmental (external) influences. In humans, emotion fundamentally involves "physiological arousal, expressive behaviors, and conscious experience." Emotion is associated with mood, temperament, personality, disposition, and motivation. Motivations direct and energize behavior, while emotions provide the affective component to motivation, positive or negative.

    .
    I am Shiva, the destroyer of illusion...
    Vinaire's Story.....
    Vinaire's Blog.....

    .

  4. #33

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A. Baker View Post
    Yeah. Where did anyone get the idea that love is higher up than hate!


    Mark A. Baker
    p.s. for the irony challenged, the above is an instance of irony. Look it up.


    Lol ... well, in some situations it could be 'better' for both/all parties to indulge in hate rather than love ... at least short term.



    Unrequited love is hard to live with and suffocating love is even worse ... IOW love isn't always great and hate creates some distance and as long as it isn't overly indulged that can be quite a positive thing.

    Love and hate ... both have their place in our lives, as do all emotions and I don't think we need a little scale to look at and decide if it is "OK" to feel something or not (this isn't being addressed at you personally BTW Mark ... I just used your post as it struck me as worth responding to).







    The birds they sang, at the break of day
    Start again, I heard them say
    Do not dwell on what has passed away
    or what is yet to be ...

    Leonard Cohen.




  5. Likes olska liked this post
  6. #34

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by I told you I was trouble View Post


    Lol ... well, in some situations it could be 'better' for both/all parties to indulge in hate rather than love ... at least short term.



    Unrequited love is hard to live with and suffocating love is even worse ... IOW love isn't always great and hate creates some distance and as long as it isn't overly indulged that can be quite a positive thing.

    Love and hate ... both have their place in our lives, as do all emotions and I don't think we need a little scale to look at and decide if it is "OK" to feel something or not (this isn't being addressed at you personally BTW Mark ... I just used your post as it struck me as worth responding to).



    I think I agree. A higher and lower scale leads to avoidance of the lower, denial of it, and people getting into cults trying to become poifect.

  7. Likes olska liked this post
  8. #35

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by degraded being View Post
    I think I agree. A higher and lower scale leads to avoidance of the lower, denial of it, and people getting into cults trying to become poifect.
    Exactly.

    Many of us bought the idea that we had to aim to be "uptone and poifect" and it created a lot of people that were deeply distressed and quite vicious ... I have never met so many bitter and unpleasant people as I met in the SO when they finally let their guards down.

    Most appeared to be acting, pretending to be H A P P Y ... like caged animals in a circus performing daily for peanuts.

    It's so wrong and so unhealthy.

    I doubt it affected public scientologists as seriously because they still controlled their own lives (sort of!).







    The birds they sang, at the break of day
    Start again, I heard them say
    Do not dwell on what has passed away
    or what is yet to be ...

    Leonard Cohen.




  9. Likes Tiger Lily liked this post
  10. #36
    Crusader Commander Birdsong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    6,116

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    Gawd - I write up a "fognition" I had and WW III gets declared here by the usual suspects.

    Thanks for all the contributions tho' - it's been interesting to see what others have seen on this subject

    Doing REAL training on human behaviour has been a godsend for someone like me who had 30 years of Hubbardian indoctrination

    I've had the Tone Scale on "hold" for a long time as it never fully gelled for me, especially once I left the cult. So more comments on it would be lovely - helps out a recovering-from-cult-mindf*#k- Scooter.

    the tone scale never gelled for you?

    jeezisss...

    i grooved out on the COHE. i still think SOS is the the most valuable thing elron cooked up. or coked up.

    just a superb description of basic sanity in the 3.0-4.0 range. a beautiful clarification and codification of natural truths and educated, disciplined truth

    serious students of scripture should note how well the COHE and the book of proverbs play off against one another

    as to multible emotions... well scoots of course you and i are guys. chicks have no problem with loving and hating the same person

    ahh...

    dames! ya can't live with 'em... and ya can't kill 'em

    you know why women have two sets of lips?

    so they can piss and moan at the same time


    be back monday
    I didn't drink the KoolAid but I sure did drink the wine
    I wasn't on the spot but I sure did walk the line
    You know I saw her coming but I didn't hear her go
    'Cuz she said goodbye to me years before she said hello


    http://cmdrbirdsong.org

    http://churchofamericanscience.org/

  11. #37
    Silver Meritorious Sponsor HelluvaHoax!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    15,910

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark A. Baker View Post
    Yeah. Where did anyone get the idea that love is higher up than hate!


    Mark A. Baker
    p.s. for the irony challenged, the above is an instance of irony. Look it up.

    Hey Mark, when you have to berate people as "irony challenged" and condescendingly order them to "look it up" it's not irony.

    Wogs call that "insulting".
    ________________________

    Scientology literally saved my life! Without Ron's books I would have frozen to death!!! (see avatar)

    Scientology in one word? HelluvaHoax!

    I never felt as free as when I freed myself from "Total Freedom".

    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

  12. #38
    Silver Meritorious Sponsor HelluvaHoax!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    15,910

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    She talked about experiencing two or more emotions at the same time.

    And I remembered times that I'd done that - like been super-angry but also sad and maybe a bit scared all at the same time.

    Now where does THAT fit into Hubbard's paradigm in the Tone Scale?

    He never mentioned it - in fact he insisted that a person would be in ONE tone level only at a time, maybe with a social veneer of another level obscuring the "real" tone.

    Actually Hubbard's theory on the tone scale included this little sub-theory which tried to explain away some of the many discrepancies. . .

    Hubbard claimed that each tone level had (essentially) harmonics of the entire tone scale. In other words you could be at 1.0 (Fear) and the specific emanation of fear could be anywhere from minus-40 up to plus-40. Therefore you could be in a fear that is cheerful (3.5).

    It's like the "harmonic" part is a precise "reading" of your energy manifestation, carried out a few more decimal points.

    e.g. 1.0035 (1= fear and 3.5 = cheerfulness)

    or you could be at a fearful-fear (1.0010)

    or an action-tinged fear (1.0020)

    Well, Hubbard had many ways to try and cave people in, so in that sense, the tone scale was a big success insofar as being a handy tool to teach Scientologists how to drive each other down tone just before demanding money. It's called "ruining" the person or "regging".
    ________________________

    Scientology literally saved my life! Without Ron's books I would have frozen to death!!! (see avatar)

    Scientology in one word? HelluvaHoax!

    I never felt as free as when I freed myself from "Total Freedom".

    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

  13. Thanks Stat says "thank you" for this post
  14. #39
    Patron with Honors
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    345

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    I never found MAGENTA on the scale. Those are the times when I am sad when someone hurts me (so blue) but also , really PO'd at the same time (seeing red). Therefore MAGENTA.

    Aunt Pat

  15. #40
    Gold Meritorious Patron Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Dodo Land
    Posts
    2,502
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax! View Post
    Actually Hubbard's theory on the tone scale included this little sub-theory which tried to explain away some of the many discrepancies. . .

    Hubbard claimed that each tone level had (essentially) harmonics of the entire tone scale. In other words you could be at 1.0 (Fear) and the specific emanation of fear could be anywhere from minus-40 up to plus-40. Therefore you could be in a fear that is cheerful (3.5).

    It's like the "harmonic" part is a precise "reading" of your energy manifestation, carried out a few more decimal points.

    e.g. 1.0035 (1= fear and 3.5 = cheerfulness)

    or you could be at a fearful-fear (1.0010)

    or an action-tinged fear (1.0020)

    Well, Hubbard had many ways to try and cave people in, so in that sense, the tone scale was a big success insofar as being a handy tool to teach Scientologists how to drive each other down tone just before demanding money. It's called "ruining" the person or "regging".
    Because buying a "bridge to total freedom" from a "philosopher" who was also
    a "nuclear scientist" and perhaps a "doctor", and who also managed to codify
    human emotions by means of decimals would only make sense. Right?!

    P.S. Sorry, forgot to mention a "great humanitarian" accolade.
    "If you have an innocence of being, curiosity about life, a liking of people, and a feeling of sweetness inside, you have everything." ~ Smilla's Mom.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. OT 7 below 0.0 on the tone scale
    By renegade in forum Evaluating/criticising Scientology
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 7th August 2013, 12:02 PM
  2. The Tone Scale
    By grundy in forum Grundy's guide to Scientology
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 20th March 2013, 11:10 PM
  3. A Fatal Flaw?
    By scooter in forum Evaluating/criticising Scientology
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 7th September 2010, 02:14 AM
  4. Where does the Tone Scale come from
    By ScnRebel in forum Scientology technology
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 22nd July 2009, 01:18 AM
  5. The Tone Scale
    By Björkist in forum Scientology technology
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 7th October 2007, 04:27 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •