Descent into Insanity

[NoName]

I don't buy this in the least. What evidence could Marty possibly have stashed away? If it is just stuff that he witnessed, Miscavige can and will produce dozens of people willing to say they were there too and whatever Marty claims happened didn't happen.

He might be able to reveal something about the IRS deal that would affect it but the IRS doesn't seem like they are just waiting for the right moment to restart the fight against the CoS.

He talked to the SP Times about the IRS deal - I don't think that he held back much there. That was DM's baby (not LRH's), and he admitted to some pretty nasty shit.

With regards to the slapping, I agree that there is a he-said-he-said back and forth going on. And really, in the midst of the cult insanity, Marty did a fair amount of slapping as well.

I find it hard to believe that Marty couldn't lead them to hard evidence if he really wanted, especially with regards to some of the financial misdeeds. He's not stupid. Same with Mike - the guy was a high ranking OSA official, for fuck's sake. I think that DM does a good job covering his link to OSA shenanigans, but even the best criminal minds slip up occasionally.

I also think he knows about literal bodies being dumped. He helped with the Lisa cover up, and there have been oodles of deaths at Flag. Also oodles of mysterious deaths around the Co$ - Flo Barnett anyone?

[Jump]

He talked to the SP Times about the IRS deal - I don't think that he held back much there. That was DM's baby (not LRH's), and he admitted to some pretty nasty shit.

With regards to the slapping, I agree that there is a he-said-he-said back and forth going on. And really, in the midst of the cult insanity, Marty did a fair amount of slapping as well.

I find it hard to believe that Marty couldn't lead them to hard evidence if he really wanted, especially with regards to some of the financial misdeeds. He's not stupid. Same with Mike - the guy was a high ranking OSA official, for fuck's sake. I think that DM does a good job covering his link to OSA shenanigans, but even the best criminal minds slip up occasionally.

I also think he knows about literal bodies being dumped. He helped with the Lisa cover up, and there have been oodles of deaths at Flag. Also oodles of mysterious deaths around the Co$ - Flo Barnett anyone?

Oh come on. We all know that was a suicide. She shot herself three times in the chest with a shotgun. What's suspicious about that?

[GoNuclear]

I have been a periodic reader of Marty's blog since it began. Initially I was inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding the abusive side of Scientology, but as time went on it became clear that he is a hard-line Hubbardite who refuses to recognize that Hubbard's precepts are what makes the CoS so abusive. Furthermore, the downward trend in the tone and content of the comments posting look like a descent into insanity.

The comments section of Marty's blog have become increasingly strident and intolerant of any divergent point of view or opinion and in my opinion serve only to support the hypothesis that the only difference between the "Independents" and "Corporate Scientology" is the guy who is in charge. Maybe the "Indies" don't have an OSA as yet, but as far as the attacks on dissent are concerned, all the other ingredients are there.

I believe the best thing to do at this point is just walk away and leave them to it.

Right idea, wrong spelling. The correct spelling is HubTurdian.

Pete

[GoNuclear]

..

I have mentioned it before, but there was a study done once of cults and what happens when their tech or predictions don't work.

It's called When Prophecy Fails.

The finding was rather startling.

When a cult runs dead square into OBVIOUS PROOF that their beliefs were ill-founded (at best) or (at worst) fully delusional, their fervency of conviction and "certainty" became even greater!

Indies are the remnants of such a failed cult. I would guess that the average amount of time that the posters there spent trying to go OT in Scientology (COS) was in excess of 20 years. And each and every one of them ran into the brick wall of failure. The tech did not work.

Now they are doubling up their cognitive dissonance and giving frantic & reassuring pep talks to each other in their comments.

It has long-since passed the threshold of pathos. Of particular interest is the language in play and their "top ten" favorite words of self-description. Terms such as insouciance, integrity, free speech, confront, bravery and other character attributes that they are miserably lacking.

It is for that reason that I believe that the better model for a cult is cult-lite. You charge $398.50 for a weekend seminar, where you have a speaker that looks really great in a $2000 silk business suit, hand made Italian loafers, hundred dollar haircut, etc ... someone who knows how to really blow sunshine up people's asses until the entire audience is feeling really good and enthusiastic. Have all manner of fun exercises designed to break down people's barriers in a fun way in a fun setting. By the end of a weekend, if done right, the people are really happy whether or not they are signing up for the intermediate, $1998.50 follow up course or not, and most of the singles there have hooked up with someone they want to bang for the next few weeks. By the time that the enthusiasm and hype wears off, it is way too late for people to claim a refund. Furthermore, most will figure they got their money's worth anyways ... they had fun, made a hookup, learned a few things, and for the approx. 400 dollars its not as if they have been beaten out of their life's savings or an inheritance. From what I have heard of it, including having a friend of mine who went to the weekend deal, Lifespring is the model for how to setup a cult. And yes, my friend did make a hookup. Unfortunately, she turned out to be another Prozac baby. This friend of mine has a way of pulling them in. About 4 out of 5 of his last girlfriends were Prozac babies, and they were all extremely high maintenence.

Pete

[Veda]

"It is incumbent on this and every court to realize the amount of deception, chicanery, lying, manipulation, and outright criminality that Scientology will employ to hide the truth about their criminal activities... The tactic... is to involve members in criminal acts for which they are then liable, which then prevents the person from speaking out."

Jesse Prince, affidavit, 1998

He talked to the SP Times about the IRS deal - I don't think that he held back much there. That was DM's baby (not LRH's), and he admitted to some pretty nasty shit.

With regards to the slapping, I agree that there is a he-said-he-said back and forth going on. And really, in the midst of the cult insanity, Marty did a fair amount of slapping as well.

I find it hard to believe that Marty couldn't lead them to hard evidence if he really wanted, especially with regards to some of the financial misdeeds. He's not stupid. Same with Mike - the guy was a high ranking OSA official, for fuck's sake. I think that DM does a good job covering his link to OSA shenanigans, but even the best criminal minds slip up occasionally.

I also think he knows about literal bodies being dumped. He helped with the Lisa cover up, and there have been oodles of deaths at Flag. Also oodles of mysterious deaths around the Co$ - Flo Barnett anyone?

The corporate cloaking and cover-up actions, and the dirty tricks tech&tactics, both originated with Hubbard, but, of course, by the time Miscavige and Rathbun walked into the IRS Commissioner's office in 1991, with something that turned the IRS Commissioner on his heels, Hubbard was long dead.

The IRS deal is hinky as hell.



Ii would be interesting to see Miscavige, Rinder, and Rathbun, all under oath, and testifying regarding the extremely shady IRS deal.

They might not tell the truth, even then, but under expert questioning, it would be interesting to see their reactions.

And by the way, Mike Rinder was not a "high ranking OSA official," he was the Director of OSA.

[SpecialFrog]

He talked to the SP Times about the IRS deal - I don't think that he held back much there. That was DM's baby (not LRH's), and he admitted to some pretty nasty shit.

Here's what Marty said on the subject.

Rathbun says that contrary to rumor, no bribes were paid, no extortion used. It was round-the-clock preparation and persistence — plus thousands of lawsuits, hard-hitting magazine articles and full-page ads in USA Today criticizing the IRS.

"That was enough," Rathbun said. "You didn't need blackmail."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1012148.ece

Is that really all there is to it?

[Dulloldfart]

Oh come on. We all know that was a suicide. She shot herself three times in the chest with a shotgun. What's suspicious about that?

It was a Ruger 10/22, not a shotgun. But don't forget the head-shot too.

Paul

[Lurker5]

I think there is a very simple explanation for this - it's called mutually assured destruction. Marty could put DM in prison very easily, but not without admitting to some really rotten shit himself.

OT XI, as it turns out, is "freedom from federal prison". The EP is being named "unindicted coconspirator". LRH "researched" that level when he drove Mary Sue to check herself in to prison. What a guy!

[Lurker5]

Its hilarious. You present DOX which show L Ron Hubbard was a devil-worshiping, homophobic, racist, wife-beating, child-abusing, criminal, blah blah blah and, in an act of magnificent good grace, a grudging Scientologist will, finally, concede that L Ron Hubbard was "a human". Well, thanks very fucking much.

Thing is, to say L Ron Hubbard was a human is seriously off scripture; he was, by his own admission, a space alien:

. . . think about it, it makes sense ; )

Yeah Marty, thanks very fucking much.

Good one, Fin . . .

[Lurker5]

IMHO

You can't argue against that sort of mentality, but you can highlight it for examination, point to it as an example/warning, discuss how it manifests, and how it can be used for manipulation.

A common tactic in PR is to set up an extremist and unacceptable viewpoint which is then "moderated" by accomplices to demonstrate their "reasonableness" while, simultaneously, any critics are branded "lunatic fringe" via apparently non-associated sideshows. This process allows the depiction of the moderators as wise counsel, detracts from criticism, and shifts the previous middle-ground. Gradiently.

Sociopathic manipulators get away with this shit regularly because most people (a) don't know how it works, (b) aren't really paying attention, and/or (c) get suckered into some largely irrelevant aspect of the game. Its one big mock up; and don't forget, L Ron Hubbard wrote the book on creating mock ups.

I've been watching a similar charade here in New Zealand over the last five years. The extreme right said "sell all the government assets by auction at once" - "booo, hiss", shouts the public - the "moderators" come in - "no, that's not a good idea, lets sell them one at a time by tender and at opportune times to maximise return" - "yaaah, great decision" says the public. Meanwhile, mouthy economists and opposition politicians are sidelined by various - and often ad hom - tactics. Question: why should we sell our assets at all when there is exactly zero evidence of either short or long term benefit. See, no one (apart from the already branded "haters") has questioned the selling of the assets, which was the intention all the time. And what's the M&M Show got for sale? L Ron Hubbard and the miraculous wonders of the Commodore's Bridge to Xenu.

inb4conspiracynut

It is at work the other way too. Liberal vs Conservative, Conservative vs Liberal, there are sociopaths and sociopathic tendencies at work in both, especially during an election year. And yeah, most people never see it at work - have no clue how they are being manipulated.

Edit add: PS - this is a good thread.