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Thread: The E-meter Scam

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    Default The E-meter Scam

    I am amongst the people who never held e-meter in their hands, although I saw the photos of it and read the descriptions of its functions.

    I know that the e-meter measures electric current running through its cans and the person’s arms; the e-meter readings are in milli-amperes, at least this is what its scale markings look like on the photographs.

    I was racking my brain trying to figure out what the phrase “your needle is floating” means. To me it is equivalent of saying “your needle is moving”. But the needle is always moving due to the presence of electric current. Therefore, the phrases “your needle is not moving” and “your needle is not floating” refer to the events that cannot be observed.

    Supposedly the e-meter is used to determine whether the person is lying or not. But there are no instruction saying, for example, that the reading of 3 milli-amperes shows that the person is lying, and the reading of 4 shows that she is telling the truth. Without explicit instructions it is impossible to draw any conclusion. Perhaps, I am wrong -- Hubbard might have left such instructions, but I could not find them on the Internet.

    E-meter is also used during the Dianetics auditing, which is a mystery to me -- it is supposed to measure the presence or the absence of an engram because the engrams allegedly disappear as the result of auditing. But the engrams themselves are immaterial objects whose presence or absence does not affect the current measurements. Besides, there are no guidelines telling that, for example, the reading of 10 milli-amperes is an indication that an engram had been discarded.

    The worst part of the e-meter nonsense is that the e-meters are not calibrated because there is no acceptable standard to calibrate them. It means that different e-meters produce vastly different readings that cannot be interpreted.

    The most ridiculous part of the e-meter nonsense is that this devices are used to count the number of specters (we, the Marcabians, do not use the word “thetan”) that leave the body during the OT auditing sessions. Please, do not tell me that the e-meters are used to confirm that an implant was deactivated, which is even more ridiculous.

    It seems to me that the e-meter theory is just another grand-lie propagated by money-hungry LRH.
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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Etrawl View Post
    I am amongst the people who never held e-meter in their hands, although I saw the photos of it and read the descriptions of its functions.
    I have several meter videos in my ESMB YouTube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/esmbdof. Videos show more than still photos. I also don't have an agenda of proving it's all bullshit. Most of those videos are experiments of one kind or another.

    This particular "underwater metering" video shows the meter reading where I have the electrode wires sitting in two cups of water, and I have placed my fingertips in the cups, keeping them as still as possible, and not touching the wires. That the meter reads like this shows that it is not reading on sweat/unsweat and muscle twitches.

    There are some F/Ns in there too.



    Check out some of the other videos to see the needle moving and not moving. Don't get the idea that the needle always flops around whoever is holding the cans and whatever is being thought of.

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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    That the meter reads like this shows that it is not reading on sweat/unsweat and muscle twitches.
    Surely all this shows is that it is not just reading on sweat and muscle twitches. It doesn't rule out those having a measurable effect.

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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    That the meter reads like this shows that it is not reading on sweat/unsweat and muscle twitches.
    I'm not sure of this, after thinking about it, Paul. If your fingers are sweating as an emotional reaction, they'll probably sweat underwater, too. Add a little bit of salt on the surface of your skin, even underwater, and it might considerably reduce the resistance of the circuit through your body. It might even be most important in the pores of your skin, for all I know, where the water outside would probably be kept out by surface tension anyway.

    Could you re-do experiments like this with your hands either dipped/soaked in salt water before dunking them in the pails with the e-meter wires, or not coated in salt water, to see how much effect skin saltiness has even underwater? Or what about even just tossing a few grains of salt into the water with your hands and the wires, and seeing what that did to the meter needle?

    I'm not particularly trying to shoot down the e-meter with these suggestions. I can see the results going either way, and there's nothing at stake for me personally, since I'm not going to believe the e-meter measures anything non-physical in any case. If it's not skin salt, then I'll just assume it's something else, like muscle tension in the whole body, or vasodilation. I'm just curious as to how much effect skin salt may be having.

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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    I had actually dumped some salt in the water beforehand, and more than a few grains too, like half a teaspoon or something. Similarly for the other underwater metering videos there. I figured it would probably help with the conductivity. It was a real sloppy experiment, as you can see, but I was just curious as to what would happen. It's easy enough for anyone to replicate. Anyone with an emeter, or equivalent, anyway.

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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    I had actually dumped some salt in the water beforehand, and more than a few grains too, like half a teaspoon or something. Similarly for the other underwater metering videos there. I figured it would probably help with the conductivity. It was a real sloppy experiment, as you can see, but I was just curious as to what would happen. It's easy enough for anyone to replicate. Anyone with an emeter, or equivalent, anyway.

    Paul
    What I meant was, to look at the before-during-and-after effect of adding a bit of salt. Compare before and after, you know. That's a crude version of the ideal experiment, since sweat would add the salt right where it's needed to help getting through the skin, but it would at least show something if the effects of adding a bit more salt were comparable to the effects you saw without salt, just by thinking different thoughts with your hands in the water.

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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    I see. Well, it's unlikely I'll do it because I don't care that much and think the sweat/unsweat idea is too ridiculous for words. The thing is, I say it is easy enough to replicate the experiment, by which I mean it is a piece of cake (once you've got a meter) to drop the leads in two containers of water and stick your fingertips in and hold your fingers still. Someone else could add the salt and pepper and ketchup. But what is *not* easy to repeat is to produce the exact same reads more than once, especially repeatedly.

    There' s a drill, "Consider the events of today," where the coach holding the cans thinks of different things that happened that day, and when the student auditor sees a particular read he says "What was that?" The coach then thinks of different things and finally (maybe 5 or 10 seconds later) thinks of the same thing. The meter is supposed to give an identical read, and the student says "that!" It's quite an impressive drill when it works, and it works quite often. But sometimes the coach can't get the exact same thought, or the meter doesn't read exactly the same. Plus every time the coach thinks of the thing it tends to discharge a bit and the read gets smaller.

    Paul
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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Student of Trinity View Post
    What I meant was, to look at the before-during-and-after effect of adding a bit of salt. Compare before and after, you know. That's a crude version of the ideal experiment, since sweat would add the salt right where it's needed to help getting through the skin, but it would at least show something if the effects of adding a bit more salt were comparable to the effects you saw without salt, just by thinking different thoughts with your hands in the water.
    Salt adds to the general conductivity of the water. The effect of the presence of salt in underwater sweat, if such existed, would be marginal in comparison to the quantity of salt added to the water. Sweat is 'salty' to taste but only in minute amounts. In comparison to a bucket of water the amount is very slight. In the presence of table salt, or other common sources, added in solution any additional salinity added through imagined perspiration would likely be safe to discount.

    Frankly, I find the idea of an immersed section of the human skin emitting perspiration to be ridiculous prima facie. Perspiration is a natural technique for evaporative cooling. Immersed limbs don't typically overheat, thus why would there be the need for the emission of sweat. This as an explanation appears to be an obvious case of grasping at straws.

    Much more likely would seem to be the prospect of osmotic transfer of body salts across the skin simply as a result of immersion in a differentiated medium. Not sure if that would even be possible for the specific molecules in question, but depending on the biology this may be a factor. This should be a slow process though.

    Also important to keep in mind, the water immersion experiment differs from normal use in that the signals being mediated by the water are averaged over the entire surface of the submerged limb. This differs from normal usage where only that part of the hand which is in direct contact with the electrode transmits signals.

    Since nerve endings vary in density throughout the skin of the hand the difference in sampling techniques should produce distinctively different, although similar patterns of reading. This seems to be consistent with Paul's observations.


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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    I would go as far as saying that interpretation of F/N depends on the auditor's state of mind.

    As I said before, I did not have a sec check, so I do not know exactly what questions are asked at the sec checks. But let's say they use this question -- have you damaged the CoS reputation in any way?

    1. This is a regular sec check.
    If the person says NO, the most likely response from the auditor is "your needle is floating" because the auditor does not expect this person to be an enemy of the church; it does not matter what kind of pattern the needle follows.

    2. This is a sec check done in response to someone's KR accusing the person of saying something against the church, Hubbard, CMO, etc.
    Let's assume that the person says NO.
    Regardless of the pattern of the needle movement, the auditor will interpret it as a non-F/N response because he does not want to stand accused of helping the enemy to escape, which is likely to happen.

    I came close to having sec check once because I said that I want to do self-auditing (I'm referring to Dianetics auditing).
    The ethics officer told me that he wants to make sure that an enemy like me would not go undetected. I am sure that he would have interpreted the e-meter readings as a non-FN motion; he already had a preconceived idea about me being an enemy.

    "Not so fast", I said and showed him quotation from Dianetics book saying that self-auditing can be done. The case was closed.
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    Default Re: The E-meter Scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    I have several meter videos in my ESMB YouTube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/esmbdof. Videos show more than still photos. I also don't have an agenda of proving it's all bullshit. Most of those videos are experiments of one kind or another.

    This particular "underwater metering" video shows the meter reading where I have the electrode wires sitting in two cups of water, and I have placed my fingertips in the cups, keeping them as still as possible, and not touching the wires. That the meter reads like this shows that it is not reading on sweat/unsweat and muscle twitches.

    There are some F/Ns in there too.



    Check out some of the other videos to see the needle moving and not moving. Don't get the idea that the needle always flops around whoever is holding the cans and whatever is being thought of.

    Paul
    great work Paul!

    the idea that the meter was reading on sweat was always ludicrous but, so far as i know science still thinks GSR (galvanic skin resistance) has something to do with sweat.

    PLEASE!

    publish your experiment Paul!

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