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Thread: What the fuck is going on?

  1. #71
    Spokeshole, fence sitter Claire Swazey's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    Nothing personal, B.

    Here's the reason I disagree. I know it'st just pixels on a screen and that a bit of argumentation can be interesting and all that. But consider this- there are things a person can say that can be very hurtful. And they are that way because they are meant to hurt.

    If you have posts saying that someone is doing something illegal or unethical or did something bad in some way or is a bad person or shouldn't have rights or anthing else, then that's not good. It can hurt the recipient and as I said, it is meant to. And in some cases, things can be said that are actionable.

    I know that hostilities are common even on fora that don't deal with controversial subjects like Scn. Gardening, IT fora, and so forth. I was once on a cooking forum and I was trying to get these dishes that were discontinued. I was told about replacements.com. I tried it and found some. So I went in on that thread (usenet) and just posted thanks, everyone. Got what I wanted. Next thing I know, some regular pops in and starts screaming about spamming and she was pretty confrontational. So yeah, it happens, but it doesn't do any good for anybody. Her contretemps did not shed any light on the subjects of cooking or dishes.

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  3. #72

    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasar View Post
    If you were tolerant, you would tolerate that people are intolerant

    Why always this desire for bla-bla-bla harmony? It truly bores the shit out of me when nerds hold back their opinion. Thank good there are still people left who can take some heat.

    I wish I could talk on this board like I normally do in real life. I guess your blood would freeze just before I'd get banned.

    So I refrain.

    Lets all rejoice in harmony!
    Much as you sound like a wonderful person, whom we'd all love to know in real life, I guess many people here must just like harmony and unfrozen blood. Call us weird, I guess.
    "Of course, now the worst kind of a trap of all, of course, i...is...is a...a beautiful woman. Uh...- that's a theta trap we all know. That this...that this is the worst type, the most deadly, but uh...again that's just a trap."

    PDC-9: Anatomy of Processing - Energy Phenomena/Sensation
    L. Ron Hubbard

    "Jesus Christ was liberal and lefty." ~ La La Lou Lou

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  5. #73
    Diamond Invictus SP Type4_PTS's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooks View Post
    Regarding the recent war that has broken out on ESMB--- Here's my take on it and I would like to discuss what others consider to be the best way to deal with it. This is not a thread to continue the war, but a discussion on how to end it.
    The way to end it is for every poster to apply the very first ESMB forum rule:


    Treat others with respect

    Please respect every other user on the board despite any personal, religious and political differences. The following will not be tolerated:
    • Personal insults
    • Ad hominems
    • Threats or promotion of violence

    Spirited debate is great. Personal attacks are unnecessary and don't help your argument.

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/faq.php?faq=esmbrules
    With the variety of people we have on this board there are obviously going to be some major disagreements we have with each other. People who are scientologists or just like some of the "tech" are never going to be in agreement with those who feel that scientology is the biggest con in the past 76 trillion years.

    But one can vigorously challenge the ideas of another and still do it in a respectful manner. It's not necessary to also make it personal and to attack the person expressing those ideas. What I see frequently happening though is that even those who normally do follow the rule will ignore it if they've had an emotional reaction to something someone said.

    But the rule doesn't state:
    "Treat Others With Respect Unless They Say Something Challenging Your Belief System or Otherwise Say Something Very Stupid or Ignorant"

    But even though the rule isn't worded in that way it often seems so by some of the postings on the board.

    In a recent post, ethercat said: (emphasis added by me)
    "......What this means is that there will be a strengthened effort made on the part of the staff to end personal attacks on and insults made to people, no matter how unpopular their ideas may be. You are free to attack the ideas, but not the holder of those ideas. We also ask that you refrain from deliberately provoking these types of abuse."
    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthrea...rsonal-Attacks
    And while on the subject of treating others with respect, it's been two months now since Ethercat posted this. IMO, when we repeatedly violate that forum rule we're not only disrespecting the person our message is directed to, but also we're disrespecting Ethercat as well as the Admin.

    That's my 2.
    Last edited by Type4_PTS; 21st April 2013 at 11:14 PM.

  6. #74
    Shiny Free Crusader Free to shine's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    Exactly Type 4. I've been reading and posting here for a long time and the only times it gets out of hand is when people seem to think they have a right to insult, degrade and make nasty jokes about other people. This includes cutesy pix as well. And once it starts then others jump in and it becomes a "baiting" game to see who can get the best reaction from the target of the moment. It's worse than high school, it's kindergarten! OK, it may be human nature and some people are still finding out what is normal acceptable social behaviour after scientology, that doesn't excuse it.

    Real people are at the other end of the words on a screen and who can know the effect on someone who may be struggling with real life problems and come here for a sense of community? Or someone who feels they are only just hanging onto sanity by fighting the monster mind fuck that flattened them? Words on a screen are without body language, inflection or visual aids - I'd say before someone goes to post a nasty response just imagine how you would feel receiving it, and what such a post says about you. Live and let live, it'll all work out in the end.
    QUOTE OF THE YEAR: "I wasn't aware that a documentary (on scientology) was coming out but I'll be sure to not watch it." A Scientologist

  7. #75
    Diamond Invictus SP Type4_PTS's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Free to shine View Post
    I've been reading and posting here for a long time and the only times it gets out of hand is when people seem to think they have a right to insult, degrade and make nasty jokes about other people.
    ESMB is the first internet forum of any kind I participated in really, and I've been guilty of this myself, especially in my earlier days here.

    Recently, TAJ posted:


    Quote Originally Posted by The Anabaptist Jacques View Post
    ITYIWT,

    I've decided that I need someone to point out to me when I get too forceful, or invalidative, or nasty, or snide in my posts. (Hell, what else is there for me to say?)

    I don't just mean per the rules, I mean so that my post reflect a gentleman and a scholar. (what the hell, I'm using a fake name, too, ain't I)

    I nominate you for my personal coach on this.

    I hope you will accept.

    It would be cool if many of us active posters choose a personal coach like this and that would certainly take a lot of pressure off the moderators.

    We might even get a reputation for being an elite bunch.

    Let me know if you will do this for me.

    Thanks,

    The Anabaptist Jacques

    This is an excellent idea IMO of getting another person you trust to help.

    Lurker5 did this for me some years ago and helped me tremendously with the feedback and wise advice she gave to me, and I am grateful to her for the help.

    I highly recommend it to others. Sometimes it is difficult to see how your postings come across to others when you have a strong emotional reaction to something that someone said, at least it was that way for me.


    And Lurker.......sorry I outed you.

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  9. #76
    Silver Meritorious Patron BardoThodol's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    Fascinating thread. Inspired a lot of thoughts. Won't get to them all because I'm waiting for the wife to get ready so we can go out to eat. Hence, I may repeat what others have said because I didn't have time to read all the comments.

    Intolerance is a good thing. There a lot of things in life we shouldn't be tolerant of: child molestation, spousal abuse, Hubbard ruining so many lives in the pursuit of whatever he was really in pursuit of.

    But, like most things, there is a middle ground. What should one tolerate and what should one not?

    A lot of arguments on the internet get started because a poster can't tolerate the response of another poster, or can't tolerate what that poster had to say. bottom line: posts are just words originated by individuals of a certain temperament.

    The idea that we shouldn't tolerate nasty posts might be disingenuous. Nasty posts tend to come from nasty individuals. Certainly, any of us can get a bit nasty if pushed far enough, but it's a matter of degree. How often is someone nasty? When you watch a poster over a long period, you get a feel for what's lurking under the surface.

    When I first came to this board, I got a nice welcome, which was followed by a shit storm. All manner of things were imputed by certain posters. I would be sitting there thinking, "interesting." And I had a bunch of good friends in for the holiday, and would show them the threads, and they would go, "interesting." The things being posted gave me and them a feel for the personalities behind the posts.

    You can always ignore anything you feel is nasty. Or intolerant. But, I would hate for there to be a ban on individuals being nasty as that would hinder our ability to understand just exactly what kind of person is doing the posting. Look at Scientology. Wouldn't it have been nice to have been able to see the nastiness of Hubbard? The rules of the church forbid anyone making derogatory remarks about him. Or DM. But, if we had been able to see what really lurked behind it all, we would have been able to assess the rest of what he was putting out. We would have been able to evaluate whatever was positive against what is negative.

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  11. #77

    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?


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  13. #78
    Gold Meritorious Patron Lurker5's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Type4_PTS View Post
    ESMB is the first internet forum of any kind I participated in really, and I've been guilty of this myself, especially in my earlier days here.

    Recently, TAJ posted:





    This is an excellent idea IMO of getting another person you trust to help.

    Lurker5 did this for me some years ago and helped me tremendously with the feedback and wise advice she gave to me, and I am grateful to her for the help.

    I highly recommend it to others. Sometimes it is difficult to see how your postings come across to others when you have a strong emotional reaction to something that someone said, at least it was that way for me.


    And Lurker.......sorry I outed you.
    T'is OK, T - I love ya - You've helped me to understand WHY exes can be so adamant in their criticism. Look at the damage done. The glorifying of the f'g 'tech' is dangerous to the young, idealistic and curious. They get sucked in, in the blink of an eye, and are not seen again for DECADES. THIS IS WHY.
    Let us never forget Lisa McPherson. But civility rules, we catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Of course, manure attracts even more flies, so keep posting the horror stories, the deaths, the broken families, the suicides, the bankruptcies, the child labor and human trafficking - and so on and on and on . . .

    Cautious as one crossing thin ice . . .
    (LaoTze-TaoDeJing, Chapter 15. 2nd verse . . . )

    For Ray - I have not forgotten you, my friend
    Or you Scott, this is for you too. I hope you are out.
    Kay is out . . .

  14. #79
    Silver Meritorious Patron BardoThodol's Avatar
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    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    Thought I should break this up so it isn't too long.

    Back to the positive and negative.

    One of the best tools for evaluating people is the bell shaped curve. You take a trait like tolerance and we all fall somewhere on that curve, from most tolerant to most intolerant. Most of us will fall in the middle hump, partly tolerant, partly intolerant.

    I think most of us have an innate tolerance/intolerance quotient. We may, with practice and education learn to be more tolerant or less tolerant, but what we have to work with is what we have to work with.

    Hubbard made this claim that all of us would be able to become complete cause over everything. We could suddenly become gifted musicians and create symphonies or paintings to rival the masters. That's silly. No matter how much I learn or train, I would never be able to create works like Mozart or Da Vinci. Nor will I ever have the innate tolerance of Mother Theresa or Buddha or Jesus or whomever else happens to be very, very tolerant.

    Of course, on the other hand, I would never reach the intolerance of a Hitler or Stalin or that long parade of lesser individuals who want nothing more than to crush everyone around them so they can be the top of the heap.

    Each of us has an innate ability to tolerate--or so I surmise.

    We all evaluate one another by some measure or other. I kind of like people with a lot of intelligence and with a sense of humor. I also like people who don't have to be right, who can admit when the make a mistake, who don't blame others.

    The most accurate measure I've found for any of us is how much we want to blame others rather than accept responsibility. How much can we look at ourselves and say, "hmm, that was dumb of me, I fucked up, I think I'll make it right, think I'll apologize and admit I made a mistake."

    I lack the time to read everyone here so I can't make a complete list, but I've always enjoyed that ability to self assess in Gadfly, Magoo, Xenu's Boyfriend, Sallydance, and others. The list is pretty long here of people who can do that.

    A shorter list is the posters who will never be wrong. Never. Who will attack anyone who dares to contest what they say. Who will drag up mistakes other posters have made and use that as a tool of humiliation. It's always the other poster's fault.

    I don't wish to be blameless or faultless. I have lots of faults and deserve my share of blame. Those who have neither? I've never met a person who was "blameless" or "faultless" who was admirable. Most individuals of that ilk are deserving of intolerance and contempt. Most such people just make the rest of us miserable. If you look around your life, you'll find that most of the people you can't stand are "blameless" and "faultless."

    So, when someone wants to be nasty and let me know what a lousy person I am, all I can say is, "I'm aware of that, and I'm working on it." What do you want me to do? Roll over and kiss your foot?

    As for contradictions in what we say or post? Who cares? Who doesn't have contradictions?

    There isn't an issue in the world that doesn't have some value on each side of the argument. The more narrowly you focus the issue, the more those contradictions disappear, but in broad terms, the contradictions will remain. You can be both an advocate for tolerance and intolerance, depending on the situation, depending on the focus.

    Got to go, wife is tapping her foot (figuratively.)

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  16. #80
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    Default Re: What the fuck is going on?

    All this talk about “tolerance” -- has anyone really taken a good look at what is at stake here?

    People have the freedom to choose to do stupid and/or self-destructive things to themselves, and to other WILLING participants as long as those activities are not illegal. They can even do stupid, and what some would perceive as destructive, things to UNWILLING participants, in some cases – children in particular are subject to all kinds of weird treatments visited upon them by their parents -- as long as those things fall within the law. Reference the case described on another thread here of a woman who signed her 12-year-old son over to the Sea Org.

    The “practice” of scientology is not illegal now, and probably never will be. As it is currently covered in this country by the legal rules that apply to “religion,” as well as other freedoms covered by our constitution and Bill of Rights, the choice to participate in the practice of scientology as a provider or a recipient will probably NEVER be made illegal.

    And even though doctors, lawyers, psychologists, nurse practitioners, restaurants and food packaging businesses, organic farms, butcher shops, animal shelters, massage therapists, nail salons and hairdressers (among many others) are required to pass inspections and or exams and obtain licenses, and are subject to inspections and oversight as to their qualifications and adherence to standards of their fields, as of this writing, there is no licensing board, or licensing requirements, or public oversight of those who set themselves up as “practitioners” of scientology.

    That means that if you see someone “practicing” any aspect of scientology on someone, even if you think the recipient is being harmed by that, you can’t call the police and have the practitioner arrested. You can’t get a legal injunction for them to cease and desist their activities. You cannot call your local county or city health department and have their activities inspected or rated for quality. There is no A, or B, or C rating in their window to tell you if they are, or are not, “safe” for your mental or spiritual health.

    If, after subjecting yourself to their “treatment,” you end up with a serious mental health issue CAUSED by their “treatment,” or even something rather mild, such as a condition you might say was spiritually equivalent to food poisoning, you have little or no recourse. You cannot bring to bear the pressure of civil or criminal law to get their “practice” closed down so that they do not harm other gullible customers. You would probably have even a very, very difficult time bringing to bear a case of fraud, or a civil suit for damages such as might be brought to bear against a nurse practitioner who gave you faulty medicine, or a nail salon that gave you a serious infection, or a restaurant that nearly killed you with contaminated food.

    As well as letter-writing and comment campaigns, you-tube videos, protest marches and the like, this discussion board and others like it, is part of a broad spectrum of attempts to educate people. Maybe that’s not what it was created to be, but that is certainly what it has become. It tells the stories of the many, many people who have been HARMED by the “practice” of scientology. It serves to help heal those harmed and to warn the unwary.

    It disturbs me to see people crying for “tolerance” (which is another way of saying shut up and be nice to the poor beleaguered scientologists) HERE because out there in the world there is nothing BUT “tolerance.” There are no laws or regulations of any kind to prevent scientologists from merrily carrying on and continuing to wreak havoc on the mental health of unsuspecting (and often MISLED) people. Nothing.

    The ONLY recourse that the general public has to protect it against the “practice” of scientology is education, by those of us who know how it has been, and can still be, used to harm people.

    So I think it is actually our duty – here, on this forum, since we the membership are the ones who truly KNOW about this issue -- to shout, scream, and raise hell about it rather than looking away and being sweetly and quietly “tolerant” of those who blithely continue to spread, and protect those who spread, this insidious mindfuck into the world. And if some feels "shamed" into backing off from pushing scientology, all the better for it.

    If that’s not going to be allowed on this forum, well then let’s settle it now – make it a rule that speaking against practitioners and the practice of “scientology” is forbidden, and then we’ll all know exactly where we stand.

    Thank you for listening.

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