take revenge on scientology, feat. why scientology was down last night

[Takin Time]

Because it's short-sighted and will back-fire.
Just because they are youngsters doesn't make it less wrong.

I address this to all those who blasted "Vid" on this thread. When I say "you guys", I'm not lumping in ALL ESMBers.

Who said they're young? I just think they're non-Scientologists (aka "wogs" to the initiated Scientologist) who have discovered how utterly ridiculous and evil the Church of Scientology is. They had the guts to try to do something about it in a way they could. Remember the "throwing potatoes" reference by L. Ron Hubbard? (If you don't, see the blue paragraph below.)

It is your opinion that a DDoS attack on scientology.org would help make the CofS a martyr. Well I say Bullshit! The CofS is hated by more people than you know. Let them also have their own say. After all a DDoS attack is also sort of a statement.

How could you defend the CofS at all? You think your "game plan" on getting the CofS disbanded is the only effective method? You think you're the "know best" in the fight? Just because "Vid et al" are not playing the game the way you guys here on ESMB want it played out, doesn't mean their efforts won't be effective. Well I tell you PHOOEY! You haven't been effective YET in bringing down the CofS. Why not accept a little help from others in their own way.

Non-Scientologists don't have the same background as you guys. They are NOT afraid of the CofS and what will happen back to them as Fair Game. They may be more effective than you think... and more brazen than you. How dare you be so short-sighted as to think that "only you" (as ex-Scientologists) know the right way to bring down the CofS.

You spend your time writing and writing and writing online in the hopes that someone will read about your plight and you'll win them over to your side. You hope and hope and hope that the media will pick up on some great little tidbits and broadcast them to give the CofS the proverbial black eye... and win even more support from their viewers. Then when that happens (such as the recent media feeding frenzy about Tom Cruise, the bio, the CofS) you poo-poo people's fresh ideas about doing something about it.

You take someone who was willing to join the fight and you berate him till you piss him off and he leaves. I didn't see any posting trying to gather him in for a better fight. You just attacked him. Well buggar you and the horse you rode in on, too. You sure don't know how to win a war.

"Throwing potatoes" was something LRH mentioned in one or two of his lectures. He was talking about World War II when the Japanese bombers were on their way to Pearl Harbor. He said that a lot of people were mentally affected by the incident because it happened so fast and they couldn't (or didn't) do something about it. He said the people who remained most sane after the incident were those on a fishing boat who "threw potatoes" at the bombers overhead. Obviously a futile effort that wouldn't be successful in doing anything effective against the bombers, however it was "doing something about it" and those people on the fishing boats were the least affected (mentally) about the incident because at least they tried.

[Tanstaafl]

TT, anyone who classifies Scientologists as "subhuman murderers" is one process short of a rundown.

This person advocates the philosophy of "never forgive and never forget".
What kind of world would we live in if we all adopted this stance? A world full of distrust and suspicion where no-one is in communication.

Hartley suggested these guys might be internet anarchists. Anarchy is the last third-dynamic refuge of the totally irresponsible.

I am critical of this guy and his buddies, but I'm not being critical of you, TT.
While I think it's good policy to stay on the right side of the law, I'm not saying that taking action outside the law can never be justified. Each person has to make their own call and deal with the consequences.

With respect,

Tanstaafl

[Alanzo]

This is not the way that *I* would ever go about achieving the end of reforming the destructive cult of scientology.

I am not "at war" with Scientology. I do not want to see them "destroyed". I want to see The Creed of the Church of Scientology followed as their actual creed.

I want to see all rights restored to the Scientologist and to see the Scientology public able to correct and make reforms in the Church as Scientology goes forward.

I want to see all coercion and manipulation removed, and checks and balances put in place that tempers the power that Church leaders have over the laity.

So engaging in DDOS attacks is not going to achieve my ends.

Nor is any other war-like activity.

Exposing abuses, sending law-breakers to jail, etc, these are the tactics that I will endorse.

Not this crap.

[Dulloldfart]

This is not the way that *I* would ever go about achieving the end of reforming the destructive cult of scientology.

Ignoring for a moment the implausibility of the CofS reforming, I don't see how it could possibly work out.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the (new) people at the top of the CofS get the EP of the Humongous Honesty Rundown, and publicly admit to all the shenanigans and abuses. Wouldn't the raft of subsequent lawsuits bankrupt the SO accounts? I know that there is no such legal animal as an "SO account" but I am referring to the roughly one billion dollars they reportedly have stashed away, whatever names it is under.

It's rather like a national dental organization suddenly admitting that yes, mercury amalgams are horrendously toxic and they have known it for decades. And sorry, yes, they should have said something before.

Paul

[johnAnchovie]

you are ex scientologists, look at all they have done to you, people have died at the hands of Scientologists, countless lives ruined, countless families broken up, im sure you can relate to at least two of those things, yet you dont want a hand in their downfall. i dont understand

also breaking news: ddosing is not illegal. it is simply revisiting a website a lot of times

anonymous' slogan is "we do not forgive and we do not forget" i think you two could use some of that

You know Yid, I back you up. My own campaign is on going and relentless, I do briefings on this cult in schools, have done two interviews in national print media, radio shows and am writing a book. I would like you to pm me with more information.

Scientology uses extremly illegal tactics, I could forgive them for stealing my life, but I will never forgive them for what they did to Alice. I will never forgive them for Lisa, and I will never forgive them for the way they treated, abused, the children. Hubbard went too far, we, who are out now, have not gone far enough.

Love, John

[johnAnchovie]

Did you ever hear of the Christian virtue of loving your enemy, or something like that, Yid? Hubbard even wrote an essay about it called "What is greatness?" I found it very moving. Later I found Hubbard didn't follow it and seemed quite vengeful at times, and DM really doesn't follow it. But that does not stop it being a good way to live, if you can reach that far.

Not hating someone does not mean embracing everything he does with open arms. What I find acceptable behaviour with regard to the CofS is to support free speech in places such as this message board, and give whatever information I am willing to. I am not willing to picket CofS organizations, or talk to the press, but if others wish to that is their affair.

I am not willing to help try and bring down their websites. A DDoS attack seems quasi-legal at best, and is certainly not ethical. Would I want anyone to attack my websites in such a manner? Certainly not.

The strictly legal and ethical route is to make known the truth about what is really going on. PR and Legal repercussions will put an end to most of the abuses, but it won't necessarily happen this week.

But that is my position. I have to live with myself 24/7, Yid. I try to make myself livable with.

Paul

The difference Paul, is that forgivness of an individual for doing one wrong is different from a corporation doing a lot of people wrong. Scientology, the corporate entity is not a benign force, it is twisted and evil, forgiving that entity would be like forgiving heroin.

Sorry about that old boy, but you are very wrong in your assertion here.

John

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Did I sound very discouraging? - Well, that was not my intent... More like, I don't like to see these kids (if they are kids, no way to know.) being trampled by FBI for hacking the Sinister Cult of Scientology.

That's why I advice against illegal stuff like hacking into Scn's websites and 'stealing' stuff that they could have gotten without 'stealing' it... But then again, it's only exiting if it's haxored.. They'd see it that way is my guess.

Oh, they would get heaps of sympathy for doing it. The situation is like.. The people don't give a shit about the Cheriff of Nottingham complaining that Robin Hood stole his tax loot.

But authorities will not be able to let them go free!

The kids know this of course.. So why do I care?

I could be really callous.. Because if the FBI get them and the crimecult thus 'triumphs'.. That will generate a lot of press. And no doubt that Scientology will be seen as the villain in that debacle.

But I am not callous!


.

[Alanzo]

Ignoring for a moment the implausibility of the CofS reforming, I don't see how it could possibly work out.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the (new) people at the top of the CofS get the EP of the Humongous Honesty Rundown, and publicly admit to all the shenanigans and abuses. Wouldn't the raft of subsequent lawsuits bankrupt the SO accounts? I know that there is no such legal animal as an "SO account" but I am referring to the roughly one billion dollars they reportedly have stashed away, whatever names it is under.

It's rather like a national dental organization suddenly admitting that yes, mercury amalgams are horrendously toxic and they have known it for decades. And sorry, yes, they should have said something before.

Paul

Scientology needs almost no money to operate, especially in the digital age. That is one of the most destructive ideas that Hubbard ever forced onto the Church.

It needs no Church structure, either. Look at the Freezone.

Maybe Scientology, the philosophy, is not capable of reform.

But Scientology, as a philosophy just like National Socialism, is not able to be destroyed, either.

So, I see attempting reform as the only answer.

[alex]

The difference Paul, is that forgivness of an individual for doing one wrong is different from a corporation doing a lot of people wrong. Scientology, the corporate entity is not a benign force, it is twisted and evil, forgiving that entity would be like forgiving heroin.

Sorry about that old boy, but you are very wrong in your assertion here.

John

As long as you view scientology as a "corporate entity" you will be fighting an imaginary enemy.

Every abuse, every betrayal, every failure of "the church" is that of individual people.

People who may have had unseen evil desires, who may have had hidden insanities, or who may have just not had a great enough understanding of what they were doing.

It is easy to lump it all together and label it evil. It is another thing to dig into the mess, and find the exact circumstances and remedy. The latter, much more difficult, but the only true solution.

A corporate entity is a mental construct to hide responsibility. It is a machine if you will and deserves no forgiveness nor is even capable of receiving it.

It is people that do.

alex

[Takin Time]

Did I sound very discouraging? - Well, that was not my intent... More like, I don't like to see these kids (if they are kids, no way to know.) being trampled by FBI for hacking the Sinister Cult of Scientology.

That's why I advice against illegal stuff like hacking into Scn's websites and 'stealing' stuff that they could have gotten without 'stealing' it... But then again, it's only exiting if it's haxored.. They'd see it that way is my guess.

Oh, they would get heaps of sympathy for doing it. The situation is like.. The people don't give a shit about the Cheriff of Nottingham complaining that Robin Hood stole his tax loot.

But authorities will not be able to let them go free!

The kids know this of course.. So why do I care?

I could be really callous.. Because if the FBI get them and the crimecult thus 'triumphs'.. That will generate a lot of press. And no doubt that Scientology will be seen as the villain in that debacle.

But I am not callous!

It takes a District Attorney to file criminal charges and push through a trial (and conviction). Scientology can't do it. Scientology is so hated for their shenanigans in courts that D/As HATE them. If the D/As could get their hands on enough hard evidence of Scientology's criminal activities, they would nail their asses.

You think the D/As give one rat's ass about some kids poking sticks and throwing rocks at the Church of Scientology? You really think our justice system includes "mandatory trials" for criminals? You think even the police care about it? They don't arrest every single person caught red-handed commiting a crime.

Real world, guys. Come back to the real world.