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Thread: Ask Kate your questions here...

  1. #41
    Crusader Gadfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by olska View Post
    Could you give us some specific examples (I'm thinking as succinct as possible description of three or four such?) of those "several things" you disagreed with in the indie scientology ideas, and the contrasting/related version of those same ideas from CoS version that you found you liked better. Thanks in advance.
    I LOVE a person who asks for SPECIFICS!

    It causes one to descend from the airy heights of vague generalities and abstractions (which is what much of Scientology involves).

    Last edited by Gadfly; 22nd February 2014 at 05:12 PM.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

    "They must know how to kindle and fan an extravagant hope". - Eric Hoffer about the "true believer". "Total Freedom", "your eternity", and "OT" involve a few of the extravagant hopes in Scientology.

    Go HERE to view and/or download the essay, "The Three Basic Scientology Beliefs".

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Panda Termint View Post
    Kate, Forgive me if you've already answered this but are you actually a paid-up (as in IAS Membership) Member of the CofS or do you think of yourself as part of that group?
    I haven't covered that in this thread but no, I'm not an IAS member. Bridge sales keeps trying to sell me on it and they send me stupid mailers all the time but I've told them I don't plan to join IAS. I don't believe the IAS's social programs to be effective and I don't believe that a significant portion of the membership dues even go to those programs. Their membership fees are also, imho, ridiculous. I'm not going to pay $5000 so I can get a fancy plastic card and discounts on things I will never buy.

    In some ways I consider myself both outside and inside the CofS. For instance I generally feel comfortable enough around staff that I can sit down and have a conversation with them or even go to the Org's LRH-birthday event. When there are groups of them I hold my tongue quite a bit more than when in one-on-one conversation. While I certainly don't compare myself to Valentinus, in some ways I feel like I transplant (to Scientology) his idea of playing nice with the orthodoxy and participating in certain practices with them, while viewing a lot of the orthodox interpretation as being flawed and seeking personal understanding outside of the official church.

    To say that its a binary either I'm a member or I'm not I think oversimplifies the situation unless ones uses a very specific criteria, like you did, that likely excludes some people that would more clearly be considered part of the group.
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  5. #43
    Crusader Gadfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    I haven't covered that in this thread but no, I'm not an IAS member. Bridge sales keeps trying to sell me on it and they send me stupid mailers all the time but I've told them I don't plan to join IAS. I don't believe the IAS's social programs to be effective and I don't believe that a significant portion of the membership dues even go to those programs. Their membership fees are also, imho, ridiculous. I'm not going to pay $5000 so I can get a fancy plastic card and discounts on things I will never buy.

    In some ways I consider myself both outside and inside the CofS. For instance I generally feel comfortable enough around staff that I can sit down and have a conversation with them or even go to the Org's LRH-birthday event. When there are groups of them I hold my tongue quite a bit more than when in one-on-one conversation. While I certainly don't compare myself to Valentinus, in some ways I feel like I transplant (to Scientology) his idea of playing nice with the orthodoxy and participating in certain practices with them, while viewing a lot of the orthodox interpretation as being flawed and seeking personal understanding outside of the official church.

    To say that its a binary either I'm a member or I'm not I think oversimplifies the situation unless ones uses a very specific criteria, like you did, that likely excludes some people that would more clearly be considered part of the group.
    This mindset is rarely tolerated in the Church of Scientology. If you actually are doing so, as you claim, it is a fluke, and probably will not last much longer (unless you lie, deceive and PR THEM as to your true thoughts about these things).

    KSW is very clear - every single member MUST come "on board", "same terms as the rest of us - live or die in the attempt".

    Go find three or four staff and/or public and clearly tell them what you REALLY think about various things. See how long they then tolerate your little game of deception and untruthfulness (i.e. you MUST hold in and HIDE a great deal to remain BELOW their radar).
    Last edited by Gadfly; 23rd February 2014 at 02:27 AM.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

    "They must know how to kindle and fan an extravagant hope". - Eric Hoffer about the "true believer". "Total Freedom", "your eternity", and "OT" involve a few of the extravagant hopes in Scientology.

    Go HERE to view and/or download the essay, "The Three Basic Scientology Beliefs".

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  7. #44
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by ThetanExterior View Post
    Currently you are not an independant Scientologist because you are affiliated with the Cofs and you are not a CofS Scientologist because you are just being Mrs. Patty Cake.

    Therefore, I still don't see how the term "Scientologist" refers to you. As for a different term, well I don't know if there is one. You seem to be a seeker of knowledge with an interest in many different areas of spirituality, not just Scientology, so why label yourself as anything in particular?
    That's an interesting term I had not heard before and I thinks that somewhat of a fair assessment. To some extent I think there are some people here who think I apply that label to myself much more solidly than I actually do. I would imagine that its difficult to find a thread on here where I actually apply that label to myself and don't offer some degree of explanation of how its more complicated than just that simple label. As I mention in a different response, me using that label here was, in part, due to insistence by other members here that I stop lying to myself and start calling myself a Scientologist because I was obviously practicing Scientology.
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  9. #45
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    If a person pays the IAS membership, and continues to do so, no matter what he or she calls him or herself, he or she is directly supporting and funding OSA, and the endless litany of obnoxious lawyers, attacks on innocent people, media lying, PR capers, intel capers, noisy investigations, deceit, manipulation, and on and on. The purpose of the IAS, no matter how they mince words, is to protect and defend CORPORATE SCIENTOLOGY!

    Within the context of ALL Hubbard's instructions and orders, the "Scientology religion" IS "corporate Scientology". That is obvious and clear if one simply reads the lists of suppressive acts without bias. To Hubbard, he made it entirely clear that "Scientology" equaled "corporate Scientology" and "the Church of Scientology". Of course, many FZers and fringe types tend to ignore that fact.

    If a person keeps up on the IAS membership, then whether this person is a "fringe dweller" or not is moot - he or she DIRECTLY funds the nastiest side of the subject and practices of Scientology. At some point ones purported ideas must align with behavior (hopefully, ideally).

    Oh, that's right, the poor sucker didn't know anything about what OSA was "really doing" - that is ignorance by choice, which is a common state of many Scientologists (for example, they are ordered to, and then comply with NOT viewing and learning from any "critical entheta" on the Internet). This is self-imposed ignorance by coercion and by personal agreement to conform to the orders of the "authorities" (Hubturd, DM, INT management, Sea Org, policy, etc.).
    This is also speculation about a person that isn't me because as I mention in another reply I have never been an IAS member. Sometimes I think posts like this can be harmful during these lets ask (person) a bunch of questions threads and derailments because there are some people that seem to always read it as being statements about the person rather than speculation about a theoretical situation. I think it would be pretty easy for someone to read the above and come away with the idea that I pay IAS dues and feign ignorance which isn't the case for me.
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  10. #46
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by MissWog View Post
    Do they let people stay on course if they don't join the IAS? I thought to be active, in anyway, it was required to be a current member. I'm not talking about buying a book but taking a course or receiving auditing or processing..I also assume if you don't buy an IAS membership you will get sent to ethics before you can do anything course or processing related to work on your case. I'm sure they will sell a book or lecture to anyone, IAS member or not.
    That depends on the course. For extension courses, Dianetic auditing, (i think) the lower grades, the life improvement courses, etc. one doesn't have to be an IAS member. They do have to be an IAS member if they are doing any auditor training, are an FSM, are doing OT courses, are on staff, etc. There is certainly a push to get people to sign up for an IAS membership but its not mandatory.
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    That's an interesting term I had not heard before and I thinks that somewhat of a fair assessment. To some extent I think there are some people here who think I apply that label to myself much more solidly than I actually do. I would imagine that its difficult to find a thread on here where I actually apply that label to myself and don't offer some degree of explanation of how its more complicated than just that simple label. As I mention in a different response, me using that label here was, in part, due to insistence by other members here that I stop lying to myself and start calling myself a Scientologist because I was obviously practicing Scientology.
    You haven't heard Mrs. Pattycake? Have you ever read KSW?

    In my first reading, I imagined KSW to be somewhat tongue in cheek. But it isn't - it is very literal. Especially the part about them preferring you dead rather than incapable.
    The main key to free a person from this cult is compassion. This is true of all cults, but it is especially true of Scientology, where, in the upper echelons, there isn't even any pretense of compassion. Showing compassion just might be the key to breaking through the person's cult identity and reaching the real person.

    ***Monica Pignotti - My Nine Lives in Scientology***
    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/pignotti/

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  14. #48
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    This is also speculation about a person that isn't me because as I mention in another reply I have never been an IAS member. Sometimes I think posts like this can be harmful during these lets ask (person) a bunch of questions threads and derailments because there are some people that seem to always read it as being statements about the person rather than speculation about a theoretical situation. I think it would be pretty easy for someone to read the above and come away with the idea that I pay IAS dues and feign ignorance which isn't the case for me.
    You are free to READ IN whatever you like. I NEVER said that.

    I never read where you said you weren't an IAS member. I am glad to hear it!

    I am not going to write what I write in anticipation of some dummy who falsely reads into my words what I am not saying. THAT is his or her problem. I am not responsible for the "dub-in" of every other human being.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

    "They must know how to kindle and fan an extravagant hope". - Eric Hoffer about the "true believer". "Total Freedom", "your eternity", and "OT" involve a few of the extravagant hopes in Scientology.

    Go HERE to view and/or download the essay, "The Three Basic Scientology Beliefs".

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  16. #49
    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    Oh believe me I use PaulsRobot a lot and I find it awesome!
    Wonderful! May I quote you? (Like here.)


    But your experience here, at least at this point, is inherently going to be vastly different than mine. Back when I was going through non-label phase I said almost word for word what you wrote should cover it, because I think you're right - that _should_ cover it. What I got in return though, from some members of this forum, was accusations of secretly being a Scientologist and lots of 'you should just admit you are Scientologist and stop lying to us and yourself'-type messages. Well I took their advice and this the result.
    Why bother? Ignore them and be what you want to be. ESMB tolerates a very wide range of (civil) viewpoints.

    Paul
    PaulsRobot Iconic now available for use at www.PaulsRobot2.com. With Auto-Report. Video here. Introductory post here. Debug post here. Dipoles post here.

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  18. #50
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by MissWog View Post
    Then you are not a Scientologist and using that label only causes confusion and can be detrimental to those lurking who only see "I find Scientology useful" without the fact that this usefulness doesn't include the biggest parts of Scientology.
    To the best of my knowledge I've only labeled myself that here in conjunction with some degree of explanation about how I use the terms. It being reduced simply down to Scientologist I think is happening largely because of people replying to my posts and asking me questions using only that label without the explanation and other people read that and assume that I use this term in the same way because they didn't get a chance to read the explanation I put along with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MissWog View Post
    To me this is like saying "I'm a Christian but I don't believe Jesus was the messiah"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by MissWog View Post
    To me this is like saying "I'm a Muslim but I don't think Mohammed was THE Prophet" LRH was was/is Source, how can you say his interpretation of his own writings were incorrect? He wrote it and all this shit has only been going down in the last 64yrs.. There is no question that he is Source.
    Well if you want to view things the way the Church of Scientology tells you to be my guest, but I'd rather apply critical thinking and my own experience to the actual content rather than focusing on the guy on who wrote it and his intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by MissWog View Post
    We can question who wrote the Koran and the Bible..but we have Hubbs on tape and video, this modern day. It's like saying my own interpretation of this post that I am writing is wrong at this minute is wrong. You might and others might interpret what I am writing to be not quite correct but I am the one writing it, there is no question it is my fingers on the keyboard. I am the author and Hubbard is the author of Scientology, he might have had assistance but he is the author.
    Sure you have an intention of what you mean when you wrote it down - but what matters more to _me_: what you intended or how I interpret and use it? I personally believe its up to the reader to apply their own reasoning skills to what they read and incorporate it into their own life as they see fit, it's not up to the author to force exactly their intention on the reader. To just take everything as given would be to apply anti-intellectualism in my opinion.
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