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Thread: Ask Kate your questions here...

  1. #71
    Crusader Gadfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    Yes those things concern me and I try to affect what change I can from the inside. Change in an organization like this can't be only an externally-driven thing - it takes people trying to change the mindset of the internal culture. Do I believe I'll have some big impact? No, absolutely not. But I do believe that I have some small impact in almost every interaction that I have with staff and SO members.

    What makes you certain that I'm a Scientologist when many of the others here are claiming I'm not a Scientologist?
    Effect changes from the inside? As a fringe "member" who only does extension courses? A person who isn't even an IAS member. You are funny beyond belief. You, the self-proclaimed "fringe dilettante", affects changes (impacts) on Sea Org members?



    Hubbard had a term for this type of view and thinking - hallucinatory cause!

    You are either really stupid or really blind. Or suffering a level of delusion that I have never seen before anywhere to such a marked degree.

    There is no "changing Scientology from the inside". To think that such a thing is possible requires a complete disconnection with obvious Scientology history and Scientology reality. This takes the idealism of youth to new levels of absurdity (if actually not some contrived pretense based on an agenda).

    EVERY PERSON who has EVER tried to "change Scientology" from the inside has ended up DECLARED SUPPRESSIVE and forcefully disconnected from all friends and family. THAT practice is a key part of your wonderful "Scientology".

    Any suggestion to change Scientology "for the better" is viewed as a CRITICISM and dealt with accordingly.

    I was declared suppressive for writing a REAL REPORT outlining actual alterations in Scientology materials. All of my efforts and good intentions to "help change things from the inside" were met with ridicule, attack and forced separation from family and friends (for years). So, to hear you say such complete horseshit almost offends me - if I could actually get offended.

    That you say such nonsense is beyond stupid. You really are an amazing dummy or you are some sort of shill for Scientology. Either way sucks.

    Again, I don't give a rat's ass really. The world is filled with idiocy of all sorts. I can't control or change it. Your posts simply seem display another side to such idiocy.
    Last edited by Gadfly; 22nd February 2014 at 08:48 PM.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

    "They must know how to kindle and fan an extravagant hope". - Eric Hoffer about the "true believer". "Total Freedom", "your eternity", and "OT" involve a few of the extravagant hopes in Scientology.

    Go HERE to view and/or download the essay, "The Three Basic Scientology Beliefs".

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  3. #72
    Silver Meritorious Patron MissWog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    Maybe it is a fluke I've never claimed that it was normal, only relayed my experience. I disagree with KSW in almost every respect. Why would I do that thing you mention when right now I can do extension courses which I feel like I get something out of and I also feel allows me the chance to do exactly what you are talking about in a much more accepted and subtle manner. Going up to someone and saying "the reactive mind is made up!" doesn't do any good for anyone but writing a 4 page essay on the clear cognition as part of an extension course allows me to communicate the same thing in a way that gets me a 'VWD'.
    Are they even reading what you write..or just taking your money? Are you telling them in these essay you think clear and OT are meaningless?

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  5. #73
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by MissWog View Post
    Kate,
    I know as I write this that you are still answering other questions but by the time you read this here is my question: Do you still consider yourself a Scientologist?
    Thanks for being patient, it takes a while to get through them all. But I'm trying to do so. If you or anybody feels like I skipped something you wanted answered please point it out to me.

    Regarding that label, it depends on the context. If you mean do I still consider myself a Scientologist when posting on this board? Well I consider myself a Scientologist with an explanation that I don't use that term in the same way that some others here use it, but some here know exactly what I mean by it so it's complicated.

    To some extent I feel like there is an attitude of some members here that is along the lines of "we can't have someone who critically evaluates Scientology material calling themselves a Scientologist here because then lurkers might get the idea that its possible to critically evaluate Scientology and we can't have that now can we!" I, to be very honest, do not care at all about lurkers. I _do_ care about the regular posters here because I respect them and their opinions but I'm not going to write my posts based on the message that I think people I don't interact should be receiving, in my view that's basically propaganda. I'm not here to promote anyone's agenda - be it the Scientology is awesome or the Scientology is evil crowds. If a lurker is going to make a decision based just on my posts while ignoring the other 99.99999% of this message board than they are dumb.
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  6. #74
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    Affect changes from the inside? As a fringe "member" who only does extension courses? A person who isn't even an IAS member. You are funny beyond belief.



    You are either really stupid or really blind. Or suffering a level of delusion that I have never seen before anywhere to such a marked degree.

    There is no "changing Scientology from the inside". To think that such a thing is possible requires a complete disconnection with obvious Scientology history and Scientology reality. This takes the idealism of youth to new levels of absurdity (if actually not some contrived pretense based on an agenda).

    EVERY PERSON who has EVER tried to "change Scientology" from the inside has ended up DECLARED SUPPRESSIVE and forcefully disconnected from all friends and family. THAT practice is a key part of your wonderful "Scientology".
    Exactly. This is why I brought up the term "Mrs. Pattycake". From what Kate has said about her interaction with the CofS it bears no relation to the way the CofS deals with real Scientologists.

    All of this disagreeing with parts of the tech, squirreling processes etc. Can any ex-Scientologist on this board relate to this being done without the person being hauled over the coals?

    She gets away with it because they see her as Mrs. Pattycake and not yet a Scientologist.

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    Silver Meritorious Patron MissWog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    Yes those things concern me and I try to affect what change I can from the inside. Change in an organization like this can't be only an externally-driven thing - it takes people trying to change the mindset of the internal culture. Do I believe I'll have some big impact? No, absolutely not. But I do believe that I have some small impact in almost every interaction that I have with staff and SO members.

    What makes you certain that I'm a Scientologist when many of the others here are claiming I'm not a Scientologist?
    Impact in what way? I don't understand..can you give an example?

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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    Just do your extension courses, have fun, and live your life. But you don't do that. You spend great amounts of time HERE on ESMB.
    Only when these type of misunderstanding situations erupt because I believe its reasonable to try to respond to people's questions and comments. It almost always happens that I make a comment about something that someone disagrees with and they then start questioning my motives or character thus making it about me and I respond to their questions in as direct and honest a way as I know how. If I were to just ignore them I feel like it would just get worse because that would be proof that I'm OSA or some other nonsense and I'd be accused of not answering questions and avoiding discussion 'just like a Scientologist' (I've certainly had both of those things thrown at me on this board before).

    My average post-per-day count I'm pretty sure is about 1, that's not that much time on ESMB.
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  11. #77
    Platinum SP Meritorious NoName's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    Yes I've read KSW - it's literally all over the place in Scientology material. Mrs. Pattycake is described in an HCOPL that might be studied by staff members but I have little to no interest in. As I've read through all the red volumes its quite likely I've read that HCOPL at some point and forgot about it, but in general I only focus on the things that are important to what I'm doing.

    I think KSW is really dumb and dogmatic. I very much dislike dogmatism.
    Gaddy? Isn't Mrs. Pattycake referenced in KSW? Or am I mistaken? You know, Clear turned out to be a fraud so I don't have a photographic memory after all.
    The main key to free a person from this cult is compassion. This is true of all cults, but it is especially true of Scientology, where, in the upper echelons, there isn't even any pretense of compassion. Showing compassion just might be the key to breaking through the person's cult identity and reaching the real person.

    ***Monica Pignotti - My Nine Lives in Scientology***
    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/pignotti/

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  13. #78
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Terril park View Post
    Can we see that essay?
    I don't want to post it word for word here because that completely de-ananymizes me. I'll try to reword some parts of it and post an excerpt or something. Much of it revolved around comparing to (and contrasting it with) it a Zen koan.
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  15. #79
    Crusader Gadfly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by NoName View Post
    Gaddy? Isn't Mrs. Pattycake referenced in KSW? Or am I mistaken? You know, Clear turned out to be a fraud so I don't have a photographic memory after all.
    Yes, I posted the exact quote from KSW earlier in this thread (page 7):

    See LINK

    It is common to hear staff and some Scientology public use the term derogatorily about dilettantes and fence-hangers.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

    "They must know how to kindle and fan an extravagant hope". - Eric Hoffer about the "true believer". "Total Freedom", "your eternity", and "OT" involve a few of the extravagant hopes in Scientology.

    Go HERE to view and/or download the essay, "The Three Basic Scientology Beliefs".

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    Default Re: Ask Kate your questions here...

    Quote Originally Posted by kate8024 View Post
    Sure thing!

    Some indie groups, from what I have seen, view Ron as Source to an even greater degree than the CofS does. I personally believe the material needs _a_lot_ of modification and when I look at the actual changes that were part of the GAT changes almost all of them look to me like improvements. Now I don't buy the evil transcriptionist story one bit but I think most of the changes to the materials themselves were a good thing. Every indie I have talked to about it is completely against the GAT changes. I think the GAT changes didn't go near far enough.

    Some of the inde stuff out there is based on the Rons Org material which (based on what I've read of it so far) I completely don't connect with, it simply doesn't describe what I experience. On the other hand, I _love_ The Pilot's work - SuperScio is probably one of my favorite books ever.

    I also believe that the official church does offer some services and products that are unique to them - for example I think that Bridge and Golden Era do really great work. If the church collapses I hope those divisions survive (as actual companies with real paid employees). Some idies I've spoken with believe that every division in the church is inherently evil by association and I don't completely agree.

    Does that help answer your question?
    Yes it does help. And FYI I really don't care what you (or anyone else) calls themselves -- to each his/her own, I'm just interested in where you're coming from with your interest in the subject and how it is that you chose THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT, rather than some other path, in your quest for whatever it is you are questing for. I'm not that interested in your attitudes toward or affiliations with various group(s) or individuals that use the name "scientologist" -- I'm more interested in the beliefs to which you ascribe and/or doctrines you may have adopted. More questions on that, later. Meanwhile...

    Regarding what I have bolded in your post quoted above, could you give a few examples of what you consider to be their "really great work?"

    Edit: Oh, I see you already did that in answer to a post by Gadfly, so never mind. Onward and forward....
    Last edited by olska; 22nd February 2014 at 06:54 PM.

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