Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 27 of 27

Thread: 20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

  1. #21
    Gold Meritorious Sponsor HelluvaHoax!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    21,912

    Default Re: 20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    At the risk of bringing about the introduction of pay toilets in orgs...the only part of Scientology that doesn't yet have a price list and cash register, AFAIK, are the bathrooms.
    Pre-Miscavige Scientology operated, as you will recall on "fixed donations" - which, in plain English is a price list.
    The word "donations" was used as a form of religious cloaking; real religions rely upon donations - only a religiously cloaked cult with tremendous chutzpah would use such an obviously contradictory term as "fixed donation."
    Unless I'm mistaken, it's the religious designation that exempts Scientology from the FLSA (minimum wage) along with disability, unemployment, and health insurance contributions that are mandated by current US law.
    In fact, the ersatz "Church" of Scientology, according to a lawsuit filed by the Sklars, receives tax advantages that far exceed those given to Jewish and Christian groups - courtesy of Fred Goldberg, former IRS Commissioner and the secret IRS agreement.
    I don't know enough about the LDS church to comment intelligently. I do know that the Nation of Islam whose essential religious doctrine is submission to Allah and which teaches that Whites, and especially Jews are responsible for Black disempowerment is also recognized as a 501C-3 group.The murderous activities of NOI members, which, if traced back to the NOI, would likely disqualify them from favorable tax treatment. But the closest we ever came to an admission of guilt was when Farrakhan directly threatened Milton Coleman, then a Washington Post reporter with death.
    Likewise, the KKK White Christian doctrine, odious as it is, would fall under the protection of the establishment clause, which by necessity is non-judgmental, but the KKK's activities (lynching, assassination, terrorism) are directly actionable.
    IANAL.
    I know that Ray Jeffrey was very able to puncture Scientology's phony "ecclesiastical defense" in the Monique Rathbun case, by focusing on the acts committed by the defendants under the direction of the "church". What an utter shame it was that the Rathbuns did a 180 degree reversal...Judge Waldrip certainly had no problem viewing
    them as a commercial entity.
    Finally, I have no quarrel with Scientology calling itself a religion. When I was conducting phony Sunday Services in NY, as the Chaplain, reading the Creed of the Church about everything they say they believe, but do not... I convinced myself that it was a religion, and I was part of a religion. But I was very wrong. I was a cog in their religious cloaking program, a cynical well organized program to game the system.

    To my mind, calling Scientology a religion is the moral equivalent of calling child pornography...art.
    Excellent post!

    Typically in government regulatory law, it is an EXTREME measure to rescind and cancel (i.e. a duly issued Cease & Desist order) a license to operate in a certain industry or capacity. For example, persons selling securities (investment instruments) have to be properly licensed or they can be criminally prosecuted.

    When such a party/corporate entity VIOLATES any of the regulations it triggers an investigation, followed by findings, fines, restrictions and possibly penalties, criminal liability and even the sanction of canceling the license and forbidding future activity with investments. All things are on the table.

    With Scientology, the intuitive and seemingly logical opinion of critics (including me, lol) is that their non-profit status should be canceled for all the reasons we all know so well. However, that is a WIN or DIE proposition for both the critic and the COS.

    More specifically, the critic rightfully feels that the ONLY way to right this injustice is to have the IRS cancel their non-profit status. On the other side of the equation, the COS would spend BILLIONS in legal fees to avoid that so they are not destroyed. This pits unfunded critics vs. a multi-billion dollar well-organized crime syndicate. No contest.

    What a regulatory agency (like the IRS) might be prompted to do (another discussion) is to issue SANCTIONS vs. the cult, while not canceling their 501c3 status. And to suspend their status pending a full resolution where changes and safeguards are put in place which separate the strictly "religious" part of Scientology (probably equal to about 3-5% of their activities) from the money part of Scientology (appx. 97%).

    Anything involving money would be withdrawn from their sweepingly general non-profit umbrella. That would mean all donations for auditing and training. And, the majority of the physical space in the org would be mapped out as to what WAS and WAS NOT being used for the business. This is exactly what the IRS proscribes when an individual takes tax write-offs for an office space at their private home--they literally take the sq. foot measurement and only can deduct a pro-rated amount.

    Sure, it's messy. But the entire business of collecting taxes is infinitely more messy and complicated so that's nothing the IRS doesn't deal with 365 days a year.

    What the COS would ultimately be left with, under such a scenario, is the ability to collect PURE DONATIONS as their only source of untaxed money. All the space used (other than the designated "chapel") would be subject to payroll taxes, property taxes, et al.

    I think there is merit in exploring this because it doesn't attempt to attack the COS' status as a religion. Let them have it, but let them then live with the fact that virtually all of their orgs, personnel and money matters are strictly a business (aside from IAS).

    Wait, I am ranting again. LOL

    ---end of rant--
    ________________________

    Scientology literally saved my life! Without Ron's books I would have frozen to death!!! (see avatar)

    Scientology in one word? HelluvaHoax!

    I never felt as free as when I freed myself from "Total Freedom".

    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

  2. Thanks Jump, Churchill, tesseract says "thank you" for this post
  3. #22
    Sponsor Veda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    13,129

    Default Re: 20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

    Quote Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax! View Post

    -snip-

    the strictly "religious" part of Scientology (probably equal to about 3-5% of their activities)

    -snip-
    Just for fun, what is the "strictly 'religious' part of Scientology equal to about 3-5% of their activities?"
    Visit the Ex Scientologist Message Board web site for selected content from ESMB and more: http://exscn.net/

  4. LOL! Churchill laughed at this post
  5. #23
    Gold Meritorious Sponsor HelluvaHoax!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    21,912

    Default Re: 20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

    ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    Just for fun, what is the "strictly 'religious' part of Scientology equal to about 3-5% of their activities?"
    Well, just for fun, it was an estimate of how much of a Scientologist's time inside the org was spent on activity other than BEING IN THE COURSE-ROOM, GETTING AUDITING, GIVING AUDITING or BEING REGGED.

    One would need to total up all the time spent on such non-business (i.e. religious) activities as:

    * in the canteen (during course breaks) nourishing their first dynamics

    * on routing forms, walking down various corridors en route to an auditing session or courtroom.

    * conferring with Scientology ministers if they know where any toilet paper is.

    * mustering at graduations or in reception, applauding "a lucky man who made the grade"*



    .





    * enjoy restored video
    ________________________

    Scientology literally saved my life! Without Ron's books I would have frozen to death!!! (see avatar)

    Scientology in one word? HelluvaHoax!

    I never felt as free as when I freed myself from "Total Freedom".

    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

  6. LOL! Churchill laughed at this post
  7. #24
    Gold Meritorious Patron
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    4,131

    Default Re: 20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

    I suggest that the James Madison's very successful action of eliminating any government support , direct or, indirect through blocking of court adjudication of any sect in it's uncivil actions.

    All that likely would have to be done is correct the ' religion ' clause of the first Amendment ( it was actually the 3rd in its draft ) .

    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...ligions43.html

    Madison would pick up the fight again during the drafting of the First Amendment. As chairman of the House conference committee on the Bill of Rights, Madison's original draft was among the most ambitious: "the civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship...nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed...." Though somewhat less expansive in its protections, the final version--"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" --clearly bears the Madison stamp.

    In appealing to those dissenting sects that had at one time opposed the Anglican establishment, he warned that a coercive tax would not be to the advantage of Christianity. He pointed out the history of religious warfare in Europe, in which the intrusion of the state to enforce the views of one group had inevitably sapped the moral force of all religion. Instead of men being governed by true moral and religious values, they fell prey to ‘‘superstition, bigotry, and persecution.’’ Interestingly, Madison also made a very practical argument in noting that religious tolerance in the New World had been one of the magnets that drew people across the Atlantic. Do away with it, he warned, and Virginia would neither attract new settlers nor retard the emigration from the state that was at the time a great concern of the Assembly.
    [url]http://uscivilliberties.org/historical-overview/4083-madisons-remonstrance-1785.html[/url


    The House of Representatives refused to accept this version, so a joint Senate-House committee, which included Madison, was charged with the task of forging a compromise. The records of their debate is sketchy, but it was this committee that eventually emerged with the language we know today: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    https://www.au.org/church-state/march-2001-church-state/featured/james-madison-and-church-state-separation

    *****†*******

    My point is this. Let people believe whatever they want at their own expense, but their behavior must be civil in the market place.

  8. Thanks HelluvaHoax! says "thank you" for this post
  9. #25
    Gold Meritorious Patron Churchill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    2,747

    Default Re: 20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

    Quote Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax! View Post
    Excellent post!

    Typically in government regulatory law, it is an EXTREME measure to rescind and cancel (i.e. a duly issued Cease & Desist order) a license to operate in a certain industry or capacity. For example, persons selling securities (investment instruments) have to be properly licensed or they can be criminally prosecuted.

    When such a party/corporate entity VIOLATES any of the regulations it triggers an investigation, followed by findings, fines, restrictions and possibly penalties, criminal liability and even the sanction of canceling the license and forbidding future activity with investments. All things are on the table.

    With Scientology, the intuitive and seemingly logical opinion of critics (including me, lol) is that their non-profit status should be canceled for all the reasons we all know so well. However, that is a WIN or DIE proposition for both the critic and the COS.

    More specifically, the critic rightfully feels that the ONLY way to right this injustice is to have the IRS cancel their non-profit status. On the other side of the equation, the COS would spend BILLIONS in legal fees to avoid that so they are not destroyed. This pits unfunded critics vs. a multi-billion dollar well-organized crime syndicate. No contest.

    What a regulatory agency (like the IRS) might be prompted to do (another discussion) is to issue SANCTIONS vs. the cult, while not canceling their 501c3 status. And to suspend their status pending a full resolution where changes and safeguards are put in place which separate the strictly "religious" part of Scientology (probably equal to about 3-5% of their activities) from the money part of Scientology (appx. 97%).

    Anything involving money would be withdrawn from their sweepingly general non-profit umbrella. That would mean all donations for auditing and training. And, the majority of the physical space in the org would be mapped out as to what WAS and WAS NOT being used for the business. This is exactly what the IRS proscribes when an individual takes tax write-offs for an office space at their private home--they literally take the sq. foot measurement and only can deduct a pro-rated amount.

    Sure, it's messy. But the entire business of collecting taxes is infinitely more messy and complicated so that's nothing the IRS doesn't deal with 365 days a year.

    What the COS would ultimately be left with, under such a scenario, is the ability to collect PURE DONATIONS as their only source of untaxed money. All the space used (other than the designated "chapel") would be subject to payroll taxes, property taxes, et al.

    I think there is merit in exploring this because it doesn't attempt to attack the COS' status as a religion. Let them have it, but let them then live with the fact that virtually all of their orgs, personnel and money matters are strictly a business (aside from IAS).

    Wait, I am ranting again. LOL

    ---end of rant--

    I'll see your rant and raise it!

    I support a multi-pronged strategy to bring justice to Scientology. The Federal Government goes after Organized Crime, the Drug Cartels, and I simply refuse to believe that Scientology's abuses are beyond their reach, or the depth of their pockets.
    Almost 2 years ago Senator Ron Wyden, replying to a constituent who had written him, asking Catherine Barre, Director of Legislative Affairs at the IRS to respond. It took a single letter. (http://tonyortega.org/2014/05/08/ore...tology-review/)
    Jeffrey Augustine has also researched, and provided information for concerned individuals to file complaints with the IRS. Hopefully, someone has the link to it.

    Republicans and Democrats have been increasingly critical of Scientology's abuses. Leah Remini and Mike Rinder have educated millions of people about the horrors of this organization and although it upsets some of my liberal and progressive friends to hear, I believe the recent election of a populist insurgent
    offers a unique opportunity for him to act. We gave Obama 8 years to do something; now it's the other guys turn. I believe that his Evangelical base would shed no tears over his draining the religious swamp of groups like the Westboro Baptist Church and the Scientologists, both equally and justly reviled.
    Greta and Revolta can safe point until the proverbial cows come home.
    The public outcry of a united, coherent, ex-Scientology field along with brilliant, informed never-ins would be something behold.

    And while as I'm channeling Lawrence of Arabia here, LOL, I'm (secretly) hoping for a joint FBI/IRS investigation of the labyrinth of offshore accounts, disappeared children, blackmail, Slatkin-like Ponzi schemes and assorted cases of corruption of Government officials that is the hallmark of OSA.
    Oops, I've already said too much!

    (end of rant)
    -Len Zinberg



    You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid
    the consequences of avoiding reality.

    www.xenu.net


    www.tonyortega.org

  10. Thanks dchoiceisalwaysrs says "thank you" for this post
  11. #26

    Default Re: 20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    I'll see your rant and raise it!

    I support a multi-pronged strategy to bring justice to Scientology. The Federal Government goes after Organized Crime, the Drug Cartels, and I simply refuse to believe that Scientology's abuses are beyond their reach, or the depth of their pockets.
    Almost 2 years ago Senator Ron Wyden, replying to a constituent who had written him, asking Catherine Barre, Director of Legislative Affairs at the IRS to respond. It took a single letter. (http://tonyortega.org/2014/05/08/ore...tology-review/)
    Jeffrey Augustine has also researched, and provided information for concerned individuals to file complaints with the IRS. Hopefully, someone has the link to it.

    Republicans and Democrats have been increasingly critical of Scientology's abuses. Leah Remini and Mike Rinder have educated millions of people about the horrors of this organization and although it upsets some of my liberal and progressive friends to hear, I believe the recent election of a populist insurgent
    offers a unique opportunity for him to act. We gave Obama 8 years to do something; now it's the other guys turn. I believe that his Evangelical base would shed no tears over his draining the religious swamp of groups like the Westboro Baptist Church and the Scientologists, both equally and justly reviled.
    Greta and Revolta can safe point until the proverbial cows come home.
    The public outcry of a united, coherent, ex-Scientology field along with brilliant, informed never-ins would be something behold.

    And while as I'm channeling Lawrence of Arabia here, LOL, I'm (secretly) hoping for a joint FBI/IRS investigation of the labyrinth of offshore accounts, disappeared children, blackmail, Slatkin-like Ponzi schemes and assorted cases of corruption of Government officials that is the hallmark of OSA.
    Oops, I've already said too much!

    (end of rant)
    Very inspiring! I hope you don't mind, I'm going to quote you, Churchill ......





    Last edited by Free Being Me; 8th February 2017 at 06:06 AM.
    War is Peace - Freedom is Slavery - Ignorance is Strength. George Orwell
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire
    It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so. Robert A. Heinlein.

  12. Likes Churchill liked this post
    LOL! Churchill laughed at this post
  13. #27
    Silver Meritorious Patron George Layton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    1,315

    Default Re: 20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

    Quote Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax! View Post
    ..



    Well, just for fun, it was an estimate of how much of a Scientologist's time inside the org was spent on activity other than BEING IN THE COURSE-ROOM, GETTING AUDITING, GIVING AUDITING or BEING REGGED.

    One would need to total up all the time spent on such non-business (i.e. religious) activities as:
    * in the canteen (during course breaks) nourishing their first dynamics

    * on routing forms, walking down various corridors en route to an auditing session or courtroom.

    * conferring with Scientology ministers if they know where any toilet paper is.

    * mustering at graduations or in reception, applauding "a lucky man who made the grade"*



    .





    * enjoy restored video
    And, once they got the toilet paper, the time spent in the restroom thanking god that they have it.
    Each time I spot hypocrisy, it turns around and points at me.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Similar Threads

  1. Scientology religious retreat offers religious course on making money.
    By CommunicatorIC in forum Gold Base, Freewinds, and FLAG
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 4th September 2014, 11:22 PM
  2. $cientology Religious Cloaking Archive
    By Lermanet_com in forum Important documents
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 7th June 2013, 05:05 AM
  3. RELIGIOUS CLOAKING & ABUSE
    By Veda in forum Evaluating and Criticising Scientology
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 24th May 2013, 03:02 AM
  4. Religious cloaking e_x_p_a_n_d_e_d
    By Veda in forum Evaluating and Criticising Scientology
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 17th February 2013, 09:41 PM
  5. CPS gives scientology religious protection in UK
    By Free to shine in forum Legal and Government Actions Involving Scientology
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 13th March 2009, 05:23 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •