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Thread: Mike Rinder posted something important today

  1. #61
    Gold Meritorious Patron PirateAndBum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mike Rinder posted something important today

    Quote Originally Posted by Caroline View Post
    The illegal videos are here: http://armstrong-op.gerryarmstrong.c...illegal-videos

    The document you link to is Question 10 of Scientology's submission to the IRS (November 23, 1992). Rathbun and Rinder probably helped to author it. The document shows how they used their illegal videos to help them get IRS tax exemption. (More documents related to Scientology and the IRS)

    Court transcripts of the illegal videos were made, as Scientology introduced and played the videos at the Christofferson trial.

    Regarding Gerry's truthfulness and your other questions, he'll answer as soon as possible. For now, please read this affidavit he wrote in November 1985 about the Loyalist Operation, which operation came to light in April 1985 at the Christofferson trial.



    As Gerry stated, the whole Loyalist Op was a setup, a frame job from the beginning, which is probably criminal and tortious. The video itself is illegal. Then Rinder, et al.'s use of the video ever since, accompanied with relentless, campaigned lying up to the tops of governments, and very importantly the IRS, is itself a crime. All of that could factor in to why Mike and Mark are not motivated to assist Gerry.

    See also Gerry's introduction to the Armstrong Operation.

    Documents relating to Mike Rinder and Mark Rathbun and other Operators.
    Thank you Caroline, that cleared things up quite nicely for me.

    "Scientology, well understood, is a very powerful thing. Poorly relayed, poorly communicated, monopolized or used exclusively for gain, it could be a very destructive thing." - LRH June 1955
    + He told me he was obsessed by "an insatiable lust for power and money". - circa 1980 Mayo on LRH =

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  3. #62
    Patron Meritorious Caroline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mike Rinder posted something important today

    Quote Originally Posted by CommunicatorIC View Post
    I never suggested that Gerry should stop wanting Mike Rinder to "tell the truth." On the contrary, what I said was completely consistent with Gerry continuing to want Mike Rinder to "tell the truth." I said, "If Gerry didn't like that, I would completely understand."

    I simply explained why it was unlikely to happen, and why I would advise Mike not to disclose details that would put his family, wife and child at risk.

    I do not appreciate the implication that I am a psychopath ("psychopathic logic'), particularly based on a false and misleading premise.
    Gerry didn't imply you were a psychopath. That would be as illogical as implying all Scientologists are psychopaths because they accept and follow the psychopathic logic of L. Ron Hubbard. Which they do.

    Anyway, here's Gerry's reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Armstrong
    There is no implication that you’re a psychopath. You should appreciate that I did not imply you’re a psychopath. Your non-appreciation is easily erased because you generated it for something unimplied.

    Please also observe that I never said or implied that you suggested that I should stop wanting Mike Rinder to “tell the truth.” What I said was:

    I understand that there are many people who, like Communicator IC, do not want Rinder to do what I have asked him to do, and even, like this poster, advise him not to do.

    What I have consistently asked Rinder for is to tell the truth. What I have consistently, in many public communications, said I wanted from Rinder is the truth. I simply want him to tell the truth.

    From No, do it Mike Rinder. Tell the truth.
    What I wrote about psychopathic logic is the following:

    In psychopathic logic, I am supposed to stop wanting him to tell the truth because he won’t, or hasn’t, or refuses. That isn’t the way such wanting works. One doesn’t want peace in the world, and then stop wanting it because there isn’t peace. In the choice between war and peace, I choose peace. In the choice between Rinder telling the truth or not telling the truth, I want the truth.
    If you have any evidence that this is not an example of psychopathic logic, please post it. You misread or misparsed what I wrote. You do not identify any actual false or misleading premise. I have, however.

    If despite your advice to him not to tell the truth, you actually, as I do, want Rinder to tell the truth, please say it. “Mike Rinder, tell the truth.”

    Even if you include your excuse for him as a condition, say it. “Mike Rinder, unless it puts your family, wife and child at risk, tell the truth.”

    If Rinder is not using his family, wife and child as human shields or human excuses to not tell the truth, then your excuse for him isn’t necessary or relevant and you can say to him unequivocally, “Mike Rinder, tell the truth.”

    Obviously it is very important to determine if Rinder is indeed using imagined or mocked-up risk to his family, wife and child as his excuse for not telling the truth, and even for why he still black PRs good people for Scientology and in other ways participates in its criminal conspiracy against his victims. I will consider writing an open letter to him to find out if there is any actual nexus between his actions or inactions that serve the Scientologists malign purposes and risk to his family, wife and child.

    I think this “risk” or threat from the wogs Rinder victimized to his family, wife and child is faked and pathetic. If there is a risk or threat from his victims should he ever tell the truth about his victims’ victimizing, then there must be the same risk or threat from his victims without his ever telling the truth. That is faked and pathetic. It is just the sort of scenario the Scientologists have gimmicked for decades to double-curve their victims.

    The truth that Rinder can tell, and which I’ve been asking him to tell, is clearly important enough that so many people, you included, for perhaps untold reasons, don’t want him to tell it. Rinder telling the truth is important and dramatic enough that HelluvaHoax proposed making a movie event out of the first time it happens. Even though it’s the victim having to spend the time while the victimizer does nothing, I am grateful that Rinder’s relationship with me, and through me with his other victims, is being considered.

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    Gold Meritorious Patron PirateAndBum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mike Rinder posted something important today

    I hope Mike will tell the truth of what he knows of the fair gaming of Gerry.

    I believe his mindset regarding Gerry is still stuck in the past back when Gerry was the enemy and he has not yet cleaned out his bias regarding him (given the fruitcake comment on video from a few years ago.)

    "Scientology, well understood, is a very powerful thing. Poorly relayed, poorly communicated, monopolized or used exclusively for gain, it could be a very destructive thing." - LRH June 1955
    + He told me he was obsessed by "an insatiable lust for power and money". - circa 1980 Mayo on LRH =

  5. #64
    Patron Meritorious Caroline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mike Rinder posted something important today

    Quote Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax! View Post
    Thanks Caroline.

    What do you think about the idea of having a meeting and airing of all these unspoken of events between Jerry and Mike--and having the event HOSTED and FILMED by someone like Mark Bunker?

    It would be a first.

    Just speculating, but I would imagine that Jerry would greatly appreciate and enjoy the chance to such a live/recorded forum. I don't know Mike R., but I can also hope that he too would "bite the bullet" and just get it over with by answering some tough questions and getting it behind him. For Mark Bunker's part, maybe it is one of the missing ingredients and illuminative sparks to help tie together his long-overdue documentary.

    It's never been done before, a fair gamer talks openly to a fair-gamed.

    I know this might be offering unsolicited advice, but it's "humbly tendered as a gift" and all that......on this planet.




    ps: So there is no misunderstanding, I view this cathartic kind of meeting as historical. Not to jam up Mike Rinder in any respect. He has been a spectacularly successful demonstration of escaping the inner core of the diabolical cult. He has disavowed it all and done extraordinary things to expose the abuses, even if you/Jerry are unsatisfied with his not yet providing certain specifics that victimized Jerry. That is understandable. But MR has earned some medals on the way out of the COS (Crimewave of Scn) and perhaps there may be even more medals to be pinned on him before it's all over. He's a good man and Jerry's a good man. It sucks that both got caught in the dark gravity of Hubbard's hoax.
    Hi HH,

    Gerry published a substantive response to your idea, here: On meeting Rinder

    Here’s a brief excerpt:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Armstrong
    Dear HelluvaHoax:

    Yes, any meeting between Rinder or Rathbun and me would be a first.

    I met them at different times when I was inside Scientology and we all worked openly for Hubbard. I did not work directly with them in the same Sea Org departments, and we did not have remarkable relationships at that time. I knew Rinder back on the “Apollo” in Europe, and I first met Rathbun, I believe, at the La Quinta, California base. Our relationships became remarkable when I blew, Hubbard declared me SP and fair game, and they were assigned as the executioners. That these remarkable relationships have continued over more than thirty years adds remarkableness.

    We have not met since they started claiming that they opposed Miscavige, were telling the truth about their antisocial or criminal actions for Hubbard or Miscavige, and at least pretending remorse for their actions that created all their victim-victimizer relationships.

    Well that’s not exactly true. Back in 1984, after my LA Superior Court trial, Rinder was claiming to be opposing Miscavige, claiming to be telling the truth about antisocial or criminal actions inside Scientology, and claiming to be afraid of fair game and wanting to end it; and we met at that time. Rinder and his phony group, the “Loyalists,” were claiming that things were so antisocial and criminal inside that they wanted to take control from Miscavige, indeed get him criminally prosecuted. Rathbun was then running Rinder as a “Loyalist,” but we did not meet.

    […]

    As you can imagine, a media event with media goals is less conducive to obtaining the truth and reaching reconciliation, than a simple interview room in which the truth is told and reconciliation starts. If that happens, media contacts and events logically follow.

    But if anyone in the media wants to do something for Rathbun and Rinder’s victims, who are legion, before they tell the truth or debrief about all their victimizing, I would not object.
    Read rest of Gerry's response, with links, here.

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  7. #65
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    Default Re: Mike Rinder posted something important today

    Quote Originally Posted by Caroline View Post
    Hi HH,

    Gerry published a substantive response to your idea, here: On meeting Rinder

    Here’s a brief excerpt:



    Read rest of Gerry's response, with links, here.

    I read that with real interest. Thanks!

    I will read the rest of Gerry's response in the next couple days.

    I would agree with you and Jerry--that a "short attention span" media-driven forum (e.g. filmed meeting for broadcast, footage for a documentary, et al) is not long enough to allow the discovery of sufficient details to satisfy all of Jerry's desires. However, my thought was that all of that material could be captured with just portions of it ending up in the media-driven product.

    If that was the case, both purposes could theoretically be satisfied and the entire event memorialized on film by a top flight documentarian--who would also bring the material out in a documentary like "KNOWLEDGE REPORT" that Mark Bunker has been working on for some years.

    In other words, let the cameras roll and allow all questions to be answered. But also allow a benefit to the party that undertakes the time/cost of filming it--so that this additional driving force might help bring the parties together and to moderate the discussions.

    It's just a theory. But, the vast time-worn sea of frustrated efforts to get some real answers from Mike or Mark, this might unstick the stalemate and allow something fascinating to evolve out of it.

    A couple moments into my daydream about this provocative never-tried-before airing of Fair Game, I wondered why Mike Rinder would ever consider exposing himself on such a video. That's why I began to think of their being a cathartic media component to it--much like we see in his collaboration with Leah Remini--or we saw with Mark Rathbun in Theroux's documentary. Admittedly, those filmed platforms are rather volatile recipes that can emotionally move viewers/participants to a sunny redemptive place or just as easily to darkness and denial. Or just plain weirdness, as we saw with Rathbun's storming off the set when Theroux asked him (along with the actors) to stand and salute Hubbard's photo. lol.

    In every sense, I would think that capturing such a volume of credible detail about the practice and implementation of Fair Game would be a historically important archive. But, that alone is apparently insufficient to gain participation of all parties. This is where the introduction of a "3rd party" (media) could be extremely helpful, perhaps, to get the parties moving in the direction of having a conversation.....
    ________________________

    Scientology literally saved my life! Without Ron's books I would have frozen to death!!! (see avatar)

    Scientology in one word? HelluvaHoax!

    I never felt as free as when I freed myself from "Total Freedom".

    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

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