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Thread: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

  1. #21
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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye View Post
    Doesn't matter what the CO$ says or does, or however you wish to "associate" whatever tactic they use. My statement is an observable FACT regardless who or what entity concurs or disagrees with it. Much supposed victim-testimony is pure BS, perhaps you buy into it, I don't. Feral's and Scooter's stories are spot-on.

    Many objections to BS is met with "The CO$ said that too, therefore you must be a ...". Entirely your own nonsense, your own inability to distinguish between BS & the CO$.

    I really don't care how things go here, I call the shots the way I see them, not the way you may like or dislike them. I don't sign up with agreement or disagreement clubs.
    The words bolded above are actually pretty insulting on an EX scientologist board and it's nothing to do with your views on scientology technology, other than perhaps an unknowing use of it. If you had wins from scientology, in and 'out', then that's fine. If you identified with Scooter's and Feral's stories, that's fine. Many of us come from different places, times and cultures and it is too easy to dismiss "Much supposed victim-testimony" as "pure BS" if it doesn't fit in with your own particular experience or understanding. Doesn't mean they are not just as true as the stories you agree with. I agree with Free Being Me that your words unfortunately minimize and dismiss the many people who escaped a brutal cult, myself and 4 generations of family included and many, many others I know.
    QUOTE OF THE YEAR: "I wasn't aware that a documentary (on scientology) was coming out but I'll be sure to not watch it." A Scientologist

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  3. #22
    Gold Meritorious Patron WildKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Yeah maybe we could look at some examples of the supposed victim testimony that is BS? Because there's "much of it"?

    Pretty strong, but vague, assertion. And an insult to actual cult victims who come to ESMB for healing.

    Would you go to a meeting of victims of abuse and stand up and say "I know much of the stories you've given here are BS" --- how would you expect that to go over?
    Dismayed and confused by terrorist attacks? Educate yourself and take action. https://www.theobjectivestandard.com...inst-the-west/

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  5. #23
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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by This is NOT OK !!!! View Post
    Not sure which Church of Scientology you attended, but my experience is exact opposite!

    The stories of the exes very often do not tell the full extent of the abuse. Victims of abuse (of whatever kind) are often unaware, confused, blame self, tired, unable to verbalize the full extent of the abuse.

    My guess is that if the journalists who have experience interviewing ex Scientologists were to be polled, they would state that horrible tales just spill out and that these victims have not fully processed what happened to them.
    " that these victims have not fully processed what happened to them".
    This is 100% true.

    These poor people do not fully understand what happened to them. But the psychologists familiar with the Scientology cult know what exactly happened to the victims. My cousin is one of those psychologists. According to her, majority of the victims who stayed in the cult for decades are the individuals prone to self-induced hallucinations (self-induced hallucinations are not caused by the drugs and other chemical substances, they kind of happen at will).

    Feral and other victims described their Scientology experiences in chilling details, their tales of abuse are cautionary. However, their explanations of their attachments to Scientology are incorrect due to the lack of professional psychology training and should be taken with a grain of salt.
    LRH era un maricon miserable que tuvo el esposo, tal Xenu. LRH quise sentir la picha grande de Xenu adentro de su culo grososo i su boca maloliente. Antes de acto sexual, Xenu estaba gritando -- ! Voy a chingar mi retardo mental!

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  7. #24
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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    The clarion call amongst the Independent Scientologists is that Miscavige has "reversed Scientology" and is using "Black Dianetics," and "Reverse" or "Black Scientology."

    In the 'Technical Dictionary', 'Black Dianetics' is defined as "1. Hypnotism 2. There are those who, to control, resort to narcotics, suggestion, gossip, slander - and thousands of overt and covert ways that can be classified as Black Dianetics."

    And yet, examining Scientology, it appears, since its inception, that Hubbard carefully constructed Scientology to be a mixture of both its "white" and "black" aspects, and that this mixture is, and always has been, Scientology.

    Here's a sample cover of Scientology books from the mid 1960s and early 1970s, when all agree Hubbard was fully in charge:


    It features an image from what Hubbard believed to be a super-engram from 75 million years ago. During this super-engram, what Hubbard called "R6 Bank" images were "implanted" in the minds of billions of humans and human spirits.

    All other Scientology books had similar images placed on their covers, and these images were to induce a state of hypnotic suggestion over anyone looking at these book covers, causing them to buy and read the book, and to obey its instructions, notably to contact their local "Org."

    Was this "Black Dianetics"?

    Below is the Children's Security Check of 1961. It inundates children - six and up - with questions about bad things that they, supposedly, did.



    Imagine subjecting a six or eight year old child to such questioning.

    (Note: Children older than 12 would be subjected to the adult Security Check Question list.)

    Is the Children's Security Check of 1961 "Reverse Scientology"?

    And then there's Hubbard 'What to Audit' (later renamed 'History of Man') of 1952, where HUbbard tells Scientologists that, "This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last sixty trillions years."

    Isn't that suggestion? Isn't that 'Black Dianetics" or "Black Scientology"?

    And there are many more examples.

    How long will it take for the Independent Scientologists to recognize that Scientology is a mix of both "white" and "black" - carefully, deliberately, step by step, over many years, fashioned by L. Ron Hubbard to achieve his hidden agenda?


    It isn't always as blatant as What to Audit's "This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last sixty trillion years," or the Clearing Course, OT 2, and OT 3, where the content of the person's mind and/or space is told to him, or her, by Hubbard through the OT materials.

    Sometimes, it's more subtle.

    Using the old glue analogy, IMO, Scientology, as designed by its founder, consists of two main aspects: the solvent ("truth," "abreaction"/catharsis/"key-out" etc.), and the lacquer (the sea of words, half truths, falsehoods, smoke and mirrors, gimmicks, tricks, manipulation, etc.)

    In the proper ratio, these combine to make a mind-glue that sticks a person to Scientology. Currently, Miscavige has screwed up the ratio of solvent and lacquer with too much lacquer and not enough solvent. (Without solvent, glue doesn't "work.")



    ____________________________________


    Usually, Scientologists can grasp the notion that "Black Scientology" might be used on "Suppressive Persons," but not the idea that Scientology's founder used "Black Scientology" on his own loyal followers. This is difficult to explain to Scientologists, since Scientology (Hubbard's teachings and "applied philosophy") is regarded as a "gift" from Hubbard for their benefit. Yet Scientology, as crafted by Hubbard, is a devious mix of "Black" and "White" Scientology.

    Currently, about as far as "Independent" and "FreeZone" Scientologists can venture is to assert that corporate Scientology's current leader, David Miscavige, uses "Black Scientology." Beyond that, things become foggy for them.

    In his confidential writings, Hubbard taught that Scientology's enemies should be subjected to "enemy tactics," and to the various mechanisms of the mind (and "reactive mind"), and Hubbard, in writings and lectures, would sometimes describe these and, on a few occasions, even warn the wide eyed and eager Scientologists that some evil force (not him of course, but the communists, Nazis, psychiatrists, etc.) could use Scientology to enslave - such is "the power the tech, " etc. FZ and Indy Scientologists are fond of quoting these warnings. This, while remaining subject to many of the manipulative ideas and methods woven into Scientology by its founder.

    Here are a few examples. There are many.

    L. Ron Hubbard described himself as "Mankind's Greatest Friend," etc., so his writings and comments about "aberrative mechanisms" and "enemy tactics" never came across as a warning about himself. If anything, it made others more inclined to trust him.

    For example, in Dianetics, what's "aberrative"? Something that equates to "survival." The "held down 7s" are "aberrative" because they're identified with the person's survival. "Survival," as a "mechanism" becomes "aberrative."

    Even in 1950, Dianetics was presented as being a "race with the atomic bomb." The message was plain enough: Dianetics = Survival. No Dianetics = Doom.

    And this continued into Scientology. One of many examples: In 1956, Hubbard wrote, "With Man now equipped with weapons sufficient to destroy all Mankind and Earth... The primary race on Earth is... the one being run between Scientology and the atomic bomb."

    Yet, how many Scientologists read Hubbard's descriptions of Dianetics and Scientology as essential for Mankind's "Survival!" - and their own "Survival" - and thought, "Oh, Ron's using the 'Survival mechanism' to manipulate me"?

    Another example from 1950 Dianetics is the "ally computation." Someone comes out of the blue and helps another person, helps the other person in some way or other. The "help" could be indifferently offered, or insincerely offered, but if the needy person regards it as aiding in his "Survival!" (or well being, or the alleviation of pain or the attainment of pleasure or relief), then (so the theory goes) the "ally" mechanism is in place and in effect. For example, an uncle, who may not be a particularly nice fellow, gets his little nephew a glass of water when that nephew is sick in bed and thirsty. The uncle (in the mind of the little nephew) becomes an "ally," and the uncle become identified with "Survival!"

    Now, who would have thought that "Mankind's Greatest Friend," on whom the "Survival!" of Mankind, and the "Survival!" of each person (Scientologists, through Ron's "Bridge") depended, would use the "ally computation" and the "Survival mechanism" in order to deceive, manipulate, and exploit? Nah, that could never happen.

    However, it did happen, and not only years later, but sometimes the same day, or previous to Hubbard mentioning a deceptive, manipulative or destructive mechanism or tactic.

    But it was disguised, and so wasn't recognized. Hubbard's warnings about the race between Dianetics or/and Scientology and the atomic bomb were regarded by Scientologists as warnings by their, and Mankind's, #1 "ally," L. Ron Hubbard. Who amongst Scientologists suspected? Yet, the warning noted above - from 1956 - was less than a year after Hubbard had published, and distributed, his fake "Russian Psychopolitics textbook" http://warrior.xenu.ca/Brainwashing-front.jpg (which of course denounced Dianetics), a "textbook" that, amongst the haughty "Russian Commie"-sounding rhetoric, and a few brief references to psychiatrists practicing sex with their (unconscious) patients, "Pain-Drug-Hypnosis," shock treatment, lobotomies, etc., was a compendium of enemy ("Russian Communist") ideas and practices for "asserting and maintaining dominion over thoughts and loyalties."

    From Hubbard's "Russian Textbook":

    "The failure of Psychopolitics might well bring about the atomic bombing of the Motherland. The psychopolitical operative must succeed for his success means world peace... The end thoroughly justifies the means."

    Even "Survival!" - used to manipulate - was mentioned in the fake "Russian Textbook":

    "It is pointed out in many early Russian writings that this is a survival mechanism. It [the "Survival!" mechanism] has already been well and thoroughly used in the survival of Communism."

    Hubbard's 1955 "Russian Textbook" was loaded with manipulative and exploitative ideas and practices, many of which were being used on Scientologists themselves - used on them by their "Greatest Friend" and ally, L. Ron Hubbard - ideas and practices which were, from the 1960s onward, and in some instances the 1950s onward, formally incorporated, by Hubbard, into Scientology doctrine and practice.

    Yet, who suspected? Yet, it was right there. And because it was right there it was unthinkable.
    Visit the Ex Scientologist Message Board web site for selected content from ESMB and more: http://exscn.net/

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  9. #25
    Patron with Honors tesseract's Avatar
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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye View Post
    My statement is an observable FACT regardless who or what entity concurs or disagrees with it. Much supposed victim-testimony is pure BS, perhaps you buy into it, I don't. Feral's and Scooter's stories are spot-on.
    "Using generalities" also is an official Hubbard "SP characteristic". Not that I care, but it's not exactly a tenet of critical thinking either. Yet as I don't see why your statement should be fact, for now I mainly see you using them here, if you don't back it up with specifics.
    I dare say I've read much about Scientology. That includes some Hubbard stuff but not much because I find it tedious and arduous to read, which you might understand or even agree with even though you liked the practices. But as to the testimonies, I haven't read all, eh? And maybe you're seeing something I don't see. I bet just now some others are wondering that too.
    If it's an insider insinuation and kind of everybody actually knows which critics you mean, I certainly don't "get" it. (Currently psychotic people aside, but they're very rare ... like the paranoid woman whose story Tony Ortega refused to take up. Sorry, I forgot the name.)
    Could you bring examples for whose stories you regard with such scepticism?
    If their testimonies are as consistent and trustworthy as I suspect them to be, one deviating opinion won't hurt. On long term, truth wins.

    The question might seem odd or rude to exes who've suffered much, but this is about critical thinking. Without comparing the phenomenons in any way, the situation for me and others as watchers bears some similarities: I'm kind of an ex UFO "believer", that was pre-internet, also without the conspiracy and lizard parts, I was more ... "oh, sooo cool, so trekkie - aliens might be visiting us". I had to find out gradually, after I actually dropped interest, that it likely wasn't true. (To address a tinfoil pet theory before it's going to be raised as "defense": Earth governments possibly having secret advanced technology producing UFO sights, was and is, from that trekkie perspective, pretty uninteresting to me.)
    To finally learn, years after I got disinterested anyways, about false memory syndrome caused by hypnosis and psychotic delusions in not obviously crazy or lying people, that were the "unusual perspectives" and key to understanding I had to own and ofcourse the fact that by now we're all carrying cell phones with cameras 24/7 while UFO sights aren't quite soaring killed the myth finally for me.

    So I'd like to know more from this Indie's perspective that might be rare on ESMB & Co, but please not in generalities because they are useless. I ask you to bring specific criticism, that is not more or less "slanderous" against these people anyways.
    Because of having read so much, I believe the exes, all in all, and treat mainly the odd psychotic's (or senile...) testimonies and theories with a good dose of scepticism, but some out there, just now becoming interested in cult watch, might have decided to just believe them, and that is sloppy and fallacious. If one just believes people because one likes them or because one wants something to be true, one creates a card house that might not hold up, and the worst part: one is vulnerable to people who know about that weakness and want to exploit it. Such as a notorious conman who wants to sell you a book full of (UFO) lies or extort money from you as a televangelist, or a pathological liar and narcissist who strives to become president.

    Chris Shelton on critical thinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye View Post
    I don't sign up with agreement or disagreement clubs.
    EVIL GETS THINGS DONE

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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye View Post
    I'm always extremely critical of the accuracy of any story about Scientology since most people who have left the CO$ have axes to grind, agendas to belabor, which often lend themselves to exaggeration, falsehood and altered perspective.
    This statement is part of the Church of Scientology "dead agent" technique to hide its crimes and untrue.

    The truth is exactly the opposite. It goes like this:

    BECAUSE the Church of Scientology methodically, consistently and continually abused good-hearted people for years, 95% of the people who ever joined Scientology left. To get the true story of what happens in Scientology, one must speak to the 95% of the people who left, not the 5% who are still taught to hide the abuses from the public eye and under Church controls to do so under threat of losing their families and being declared SPs.
    "Looking back on it I think I got these gains only because the processing made me self reflect and try to repair the damage done by it. So I made gains in spite of Scientology not because of it. It's better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not."

    - Cleared Cannibal


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    Silver Meritorious Patron George Layton's Avatar
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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by WildKat View Post
    People who leave Scn also leave with the baggage that "you're always responsible for the condition you're in," so it can take YEARS for them to see that they were actually the victim of a cult.
    That could work to help justify the time spent in scientology if a person has come to believe "the condition they are in" is an advanced and knowledgeable being. Believing they are responsible for the ability to see what others have missed could have a profound impact on the persons vanity. You could come up with the idea that all growth in the decades spent in scientology was all because of scientology and ignore the fact that every person that spent the last several decades living had growth in their lives.

    But it has to be difficult to look at it in a way like, "I spent three decades in scientology and got four good things out of it."
    Each time I spot hypocrisy, it turns around and points at me.

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  15. #28
    Silver Meritorious Patron George Layton's Avatar
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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye View Post
    Who cares in any group that immediately sets out to viciously attacking anyone still practicing SCN out here?

    How about you start taking a look in your own backyard, it's not a one-way street. You ask for tolerance for CO$-victims while you yourself have ZERO tolerance for anyone still doing SCN all the while posing subtle threats of banning. That's trolling, not victimhood. Here's the "perspective" factor I spoke of earlier. Time for some insight.


    Anytime you like.

    If my opinions, whether they are in agreement or disagreement with CO$ or any other association you like to draw is not welcome, I don't want to be here either. You are a CO$-victim while also being intolerant of well-thought-out talking points? This is where the "BS" comes in I spoke of earlier.

    You are just as critical toward those still practicing SCN out here as the CO$ers are of you. Playing with the same mirror? What makes you any different in mindset from the scios other than "I'm against them now"???


    Nothing in any of my previous postings suggests I'm denying anyone's rights to be heard, hence a moot point. I also have the right to be heard even if it's in disagreement with any position you have on the matter. Remember, two-way street? Or have you become so rigid after leaving the CO$ that certain points of discussion have become too intolerable for you?

    "Exaggeration, falsehood and altered perspective" is my position whether you agree with it or not. I deem it to be true and factual. And if you don't agree with it, that OK with me, as it should be OK with you for me to post my position on this matter.

    No?


    False. This statement itself is a generalization, no different than the generalization that everyone who was in the CO$ at one time now posting out here is a victim. In fact, it's a falsehood. This is the falsehood I spoke of earlier. You are in serious need of some insight my friend.

    You can find my "Empathy" on both Feral's and Scooter's thread -- Google not necessary. You merely need to look instead of proselyting.

    Who in the heck are these people "viciously attacking anyone practicing scn out here"? Can you please describe a vicious attack? (Please try to remember that disagreeing with you and even suggesting that you might be the one with an agenda is not a vicious attack.) Thinking by applying what you have come to believe does not always equate to common sense. scientology has a way of subverting common sense by applying misinformation.
    Each time I spot hypocrisy, it turns around and points at me.

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  17. #29
    Patron with Honors Goodbye's Avatar
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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by George Layton View Post
    Who in the heck are these people "viciously attacking anyone practicing scn out here"? Can you please describe a vicious attack?
    This board is not only full of such attacks, but infamous for it. A couple hours of searching should yield better than a half a dozen such posts, something I'm not willing to make time for.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Layton View Post
    (Please try to remember that disagreeing with you and even suggesting that you might be the one with an agenda is not a vicious attack.)
    Correct. Not anymore than my aforementioned statements about the truth and accuracy of victimhood. Not every such story is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Layton View Post
    scientology has a way of subverting common sense by applying misinformation.
    No different than any other way or walk of life, not exclusive to Scientology, certainly not this or other boards either.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustSheila View Post
    "I'm always extremely critical of the accuracy of any story about Scientology since most people who have left the CO$ have axes to grind, agendas to belabor, which often lend themselves to exaggeration, falsehood and altered perspective."

    This statement is part of the Church of Scientology "dead agent" technique to hide its crimes and untrue.
    That statement applies to other spheres and venues too, not only within the realm of Scientology, but other walks of life too. It's inevitable now and then in posing observably accurate data that someone will seek to tie it exclusively to Scientology or any of it's agendas. It's all in the ways you wish to associate something, of your own doing - no other truth to it.

    That being said, I'm not negating the "dead agent" technique is exactly what the CO$ makes use of per their policies. If you are however suggesting that refuting any fallacies automatically amounts to or is the same as the CO$ Black PR machinery, I'm afraid it's your own mis-association.
    Last edited by Goodbye; 30th March 2017 at 05:24 PM.

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    Default Re: How people get "cemented in" to Scientology

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye View Post
    This board is not only full of such attacks, but infamous for it.
    Awesome! That's great news! Hundreds of families have been destroyed by Scientology, kids kept out of college, individuals scammed to bankruptcy and thousands of children and adults abused for decades by that wicked cult. Thousands of people have wasted the best years of their lives with the empty promises of Scientology, naively caught up in its web of lies.

    We had always wondered if we had an impact on the true-blue diehards within the cult who are blocked from reading this site or even seeing our protests or reading the news (except the OSA bots sent here to disrupt things, of course.) Thanks for the great news that we are even reaching those within the inner sanctum of the Cult of Scientology. This has always been a concern and I feel much better now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye View Post
    A couple hours of searching should yield better than a half a dozen such posts, something I'm not willing to make time for.
    Oh come now, you somehow found the time to make outrageous claims that stories here are false and to defend the cult of Scientology. Surely you can come up with SOME sort of factual information for your sweeping claims?


    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye View Post
    Correct. Not anymore than my aforementioned statements about the truth and accuracy of victimhood. Not every such story is true.
    Which story do you believe is false and why?
    "Looking back on it I think I got these gains only because the processing made me self reflect and try to repair the damage done by it. So I made gains in spite of Scientology not because of it. It's better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not."

    - Cleared Cannibal


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