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Thread: Snooping esmb

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSneakster View Post
    The only Co$ member Scientologists whom are allowed to "snoop" here are Sea Ogre OSA staff and their few public scientologist minions. Those persons are heavily mentally immunized against actually accepting any communications from the Super Evil Devil Suppressive Persons who post here. Any other Co$ member reading here will eventually be discovered through sec checks and face truly awful punishment. Some few of the latter former have ended up out of Co$ that way, of course (e.g. Tory "Magoo" Christman).

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
    email: warrior_mike2001@yahoo.com
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mhobson2011
    As I highlight in red, that's not true.

    I'm UTR and as well as are lot's of others. I'm not declared as well as my friends still involved. And no I'm not terra incognito who writes dissertations for Mike Rinder Blog.


    The COS does not know I snoop here, and I'm still in good standing. You have to consider, or think about, how is this possible?

    From where do you think Mike Rinder or Tony O gets their stories? It's from UTR's.


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  3. #22
    Goldenrod SP ThetanExterior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib View Post
    As I highlight in red, that's not true.

    I'm UTR and as well as are lot's of others. I'm not declared as well as my friends still involved. And no I'm not terra incognito who writes dissertations for Mike Rinder Blog.


    The COS does not know I snoop here, and I'm still in good standing. You have to consider, or think about, how is this possible?

    From where do you think Mike Rinder or Tony O gets their stories? It's from UTR's.
    What I don't understand is how do people manage to stay UTR?

    When I was in I couldn't just sit at home doing what I wanted in my free time. I had to be in the org either on course, receiving auditing or just helping out in some way.

    There's no way they would let someone stay away from the org if they were considered to be in good standing. They would be calling them up constantly - "come in", "buy this", "donate this", "move up the bridge", "wear your hat as an FSM and bring someone in" blah blah.

    Maybe the orgs have gone into a state of apathy?

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  5. #23

    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthetan View Post
    They didn't want sociopaths who might use Scientologists too much for their own benefit. Sociopaths who got stats for Scientology were fine.

    People who were good at convincing people that they should spend their retirement funds and their kids college funds on Scientology were treated as valuable. People who were good at intimidating staff into working 100 hour weeks were also valued.

    It was just a question of the sociopath knowing the acceptable limits, and knowing that he had to maintain a net usefulness to senior management.

    I totally agree with this.

    I've said this before: In spite of the church's marketing campaigns about "using Scientology to make your life a success and increase your income", in my experience Scientology management did not like and were suspicious of Scientology public who made personal income from Scientology. Unless all of that income came back to the church.

    As examples: the church's treatment of Mission Holders and Field Auditors.
    Last edited by Lulu Belle; 4th May 2017 at 11:29 AM.
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  7. #24
    Gold Meritorious Patron TheOriginalBigBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Seems to me that KSW is the final word on what it means to be a Scientologist. We are not free to make our own interpretation. To the extent that someone is lurking and posting on ESMB they are something else. Being UTR or not yet declared may technically mean they are still in good standing but it doesnít mean that a person is still a Scientologist. Loyalty to the organization, devotion to LRH, faith in his teachings, willingness to snitch, and the ability to disregard the faults and abuse and to self-censor define a Scientologist.

    If you are snooping on ESMB then you are OSA, OSA approved, having a crisis of faith or an ex.

    I donít think clinging onto some elements of Scientology like the Tone Scale, the ARC Triangle, the Communication Formula, etc. while deliberately seeking out SP entheta that can ruin your only chance for spiritual freedom for the rest of eternity constitutes a Scientologist.

    I realize this may bog down in semantics and some people believe that it is the organization and current management that has strayed from the true path while they wander the wilderness pure of faith but if you believe in LRH then you must believe that doing that while in conflict with the Church simply is not possible. He deliberately interwove the teachings with a loyalty to the Church and by extension himself and his bank account(s).

    The Scientology word for Protestant is Squirrel.

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    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSneakster View Post
    The only Co$ member Scientologists whom are allowed to "snoop" here are Sea Ogre OSA staff and their few public scientologist minions. Those persons are heavily mentally immunized against actually accepting any communications from the Super Evil Devil Suppressive Persons who post here. Any other Co$ member reading here will eventually be discovered through sec checks and face truly awful punishment. Some few of the latter former have ended up out of Co$ that way, of course (e.g. Tory "Magoo" Christman).

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
    email: warrior_mike2001@yahoo.com
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mhobson2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Gib View Post
    As I highlight in red, that's not true.

    I'm UTR and as well as are lot's of others. I'm not declared as well as my friends still involved. And no I'm not terra incognito who writes dissertations for Mike Rinder Blog.


    The COS does not know I snoop here, and I'm still in good standing. You have to consider, or think about, how is this possible?

    From where do you think Mike Rinder or Tony O gets their stories? It's from UTR's.

    I see that "snoop" (to look around a place secretly in order to discover things about it or the people connected with it) doesn't mean exactly what I thought it did. I was agreeing with Sneaks' interpretation, but not Gib's. I now see both are valid. However, I think OP intended the former, i.e. culties who are knowingly allowed to read ESMB by the CofS.

    Paul
    PaulsRobot Iconic now available for use at www.PaulsRobot2.com. With Auto-Report. Video here. Introductory post here. Debug post here. Dipoles post here.

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  11. #26
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by ThetanExterior View Post
    What I don't understand is how do people manage to stay UTR?

    When I was in I couldn't just sit at home doing what I wanted in my free time. I had to be in the org either on course, receiving auditing or just helping out in some way.

    There's no way they would let someone stay away from the org if they were considered to be in good standing. They would be calling them up constantly - "come in", "buy this", "donate this", "move up the bridge", "wear your hat as an FSM and bring someone in" blah blah.

    Maybe the orgs have gone into a state of apathy?
    yes, that's how it was when the Basics came out, OMG the pressure to buy the Basics was unrelenting, ruthless and brutal. I actually said to myself at the time I wish I never heard of Scientology.

    Coupled with that was shortly thereafter the drive to make every org ST Hill Size, more relentlessness push.

    Here's a little background and it's complicated:

    I think these pushes drove a lot of public out. It was a disaster, but some of us hung on and held our ground. Myself, I never bought the Basics and held my ground because I told all the phone callers I already read all the books and listened to the lectures, a complete library from 1987, and I said I'm glad this order came down for all staff and public to listen and read all the books, and I told them it's about time somebody caught up to me as having read and listened to a lot this material. I mean, when I talked to some OT8 and friend, and find out they never listened to the PDC's or Pheonix lectures, myself says to myself how is this possible, WTF is going on, and you are OT8?

    Couple with that info, shortly thereafter we get the Debbie Cook email. What an enlightenment to receive something is wrong in Denmark.

    When you add in all that as I mentioned, I think the leader DM realized he pushed it too far and backed off. But I don't know.

    I do know is that most of the staff at my local org are kids of older scientologists. And they do not know us older scientologists. Coupled with these kids are trained at Flag under DM's new GAT stuff which is robotic in the sense of following a program and no thinking allowed, which is also how each Org is run, they are all run via programs from the SO via DM.

    Anyways, how is that I'm UTR and as Old Blue notes I'm also an EX, I just ignore all phone calls and letters but yet still am in come with several OT's, not constant comm, but just social comm. But OT's are not really public for the local org.

    So yes Paul, there is no way I would knowingly admit I'm reading message boards to a still in. That would get me sent to Ethics and/or declared. It's a fine line. Thus I'm UTR and not declared. But here is what I think the COS is up against, and it's a catch 22 for the COS since all staff are run via so called Int Management but actually DM programs, and the catch 22 is:

    If a staff member asks me if I am reading the internet or ESMB or Tony O, or Mike Rinder or about scientology, why I would use TR-L and say what are you talking about? So, here's the catch 22, why a staff member asking that question will bring about curiosity in a gung ho public or staff member or even curious seeker, and it could invoke curiosity, or mystery to check out the internet. So I think the level of phone calls and hard sell has reduced. But, the amount of letters out or promo has not reduced.

    The DM is caught in a catch 22, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Curiosity killed the cat, in my case curiosity killed scientology in my mind once I researched for real scientology and hubbard.
    Last edited by Gib; 5th May 2017 at 04:38 AM.

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  13. #27
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSneakster View Post
    The only Co$ member Scientologists whom are allowed to "snoop" here are Sea Ogre OSA staff and their few public scientologist minions. Those persons are heavily mentally immunized against actually accepting any communications from the Super Evil Devil Suppressive Persons who post here. Any other Co$ member reading here will eventually be discovered through sec checks and face truly awful punishment. Some few of the latter former have ended up out of Co$ that way, of course (e.g. Tory "Magoo" Christman).

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
    email: warrior_mike2001@yahoo.com
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mhobson2011
    So true, all written up in red, blue green or whatever as required by L. Ronald Hubbard. Such a helpful guy.

  14. #28
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib View Post
    As I highlight in red, that's not true.

    I'm UTR and as well as are lot's of others. I'm not declared as well as my friends still involved. And no I'm not terra incognito who writes dissertations for Mike Rinder Blog.


    The COS does not know I snoop here, and I'm still in good standing. You have to consider, or think about, how is this possible?

    From where do you think Mike Rinder or Tony O gets their stories? It's from UTR's.

    Yes, but pay attention Sneaks said "allowed" you know like "we believe ..."All men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely of their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others.

    ha ha

  15. #29
    Gold Meritorious Patron TheOriginalBigBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib View Post
    yes, that's how it was when the Basics came out, OMG the pressure to buy the Basics was unrelenting, ruthless and brutal. I actually said to myself at the time I wish I never heard of Scientology.

    Coupled with that was shortly thereafter the drive to make every org ST Hill Size, more relentlessness push.

    Here's a little background and it's complicated:

    I think these pushes drove a lot of public out. It was a disaster, but some of us hung on and held our ground. Myself, I never bought the Basics and held my ground because I told all the phone callers I already read all the books and listened to the lectures, a complete library from 1987, and I said I'm glad this order came down for all staff and public to listen and read all the books, and I told them it's about time somebody caught up to me as having read and listened to a lot this material. I mean, when I talked to some OT8 and friend, and find out they never listened to the PDC's or Pheonix lectures, myself says to myself how is this possible, WTF is going on, and you are OT8?

    Couple with that info, shortly thereafter we get the Debbie Cook email. What an enlightenment to receive something is wrong in Denmark.

    When you add in all that as I mentioned, I think the leader DM realized he pushed it too far and backed off. But I don't know.

    I do know is that most of the staff at my local org are kids of older scientologists. And they do not know us older scientologists. Coupled with these kids are trained at Flag under DM's new GAT stuff which is robotic in the sense of following a program and no thinking allowed, which is also how each Org is run, they are all run via programs from the SO via DM.

    Anyways, how is that I'm UTR and as Old Blue notes I'm also an EX, I just ignore all phone calls and letters but yet still am in come with several OT's, not constant comm, but just social comm. But OT's are not really public for the local org.

    So yes Paul, there is no way I would knowingly admit I'm reading message boards to a still in. That would get me sent to Ethics and/or declared. It's a fine line. Thus I'm UTR and not declared. But here is what I think the COS is up against, and it's a catch 22 for the COS since all staff are run via so called Int Management but actually DM programs, and the catch 22 is:

    If a staff member asks me if I am reading the internet or ESMB or Tony O, or Mike Rinder or about scientology, why I would use TR-L and say what are you talking about? So, here's the catch 22, why a staff member asking that question will bring about curiosity in a gung ho public or staff member or even curious seeker, and it could invoke curiosity, or mystery to check out the internet. So I think the level of phone calls and hard sell has reduced. But, the amount of letters out or promo has not reduced.

    The DM is caught in a catch 22, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Curiosity killed the cat, in my case curiosity killed scientology in my mind once I researched for real scientology and hubbard.
    I think LRH tried to keep the public from getting too wrapped up in witch hunts. Flag would do an eval saying that stats were down in an org because there was an SP somewhere and a mission would be sent in to cull folders and do interviews but it would be on the sly with a cover story like they are trying to debug the service lines or some such. Goldenrod and SP notices would be posted for public access but general public weren't really commandeered to become part of the witch hunts, or it was done very selectively.

    The internet changed all that and has become one big tar baby. The more they attack it the more they get stuck to it and covered in stuff that is impossible to get off. It used to be that a disgruntled person on staff or in the field had a limited range of influence but now anyone with a gripe or revelation is under every Scientologist's phone and keyboard. It would have been interesting to see how LRH dealt with the internet but DM responded by breaking down what little regard remained for the treatment of public and co-opting them into policing each other's Facebook pages for hints of heresy. If you are going to be a snitch, you need to know what and who to look for. It takes the field's attention off of the Bridge to Total Freedom and focuses them on becoming trained Taliban morality police.

    That changes everything. Scientology is a very competitive environment. You compete for student points, awards, commendations, how much material you have read, the ability to quote HCOB's verbatim and by issue date, IAS donations, etc. Now we are competing over how many Knowledge Reports we write on other Scientologists and commendations for getting them busted. Our Liability Formulas include anti-SP rants on the internet. Sec-checks are now inflicted on public Scientologists as though they are guilty until proven innocent. Three months and 300K for Leah. We are way beyond just trying to keep people clean so they can make case gain. This is Nork envy.

    Eventually, everyone has to decide if this is what they wanted to become.

    When I first threw off my blinders and started researching the internet, I looked up people that I personally knew and respected. Very few were still on staff. Those that had remained met pathetic fates and those that were out, many had been treated harshly and uniformly tossed under the bus with a deliberate attempt to discredit them. At some point this all becomes unreal. It's statistically impossible for all these good people to be what the Church says they are. With the internet, DM can't let anything go. Every transgression must be responded to for the whole world to see, not just a goldenrod on the local org's bulletin board in the back hall by HCO.

    So the internet has forced DM to essentially affirm to the world and their own field that Scientology is a police state. That begs the question, "Why is it a police state?" From DM's perspective he probably doesn't have a problem with Scientologists operating under the not so tacit understanding that it is a police state but he can't afford to have them ask why. The Church has already provided that answer; to fight the SPs, the psychs, the IRS, the global conspiracy, to save the world from self destruction. The layers of the onion have been inverted. For the field to ask, "why" the deepest darkest core becomes the outer skin.

    Their sec-checks now probably routinely ask about ESMB and sites like it. That is like free promo for ESMB. It reminds me of the scene in Cocoon where alien Walter asks Jack: "Face-eating, Jack? Is that some kind of a delicacy?", but the field must now expect to be sec-checked for it. If you have deliberately lurked or posted on ESMB, are you still an active Scientologist who goes in for sec-checks? If you committed the crime, would you still submit to a police lie-detector test if you could stay away? That probably defines the state of the Scientology field today and what it means to be a Scientologist. We don't have to get into how much a person still believes in LRH or the Tech. You are either not snooping and a Scientologist who isn't afraid of getting sec-checked - or you are hanging out on the fringe avoiding inevitability. The alternative is for there to be believing Scientologists snooping on ESMB who have a strong personal conviction that the e-meter is not infallible.

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  17. #30
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    Default Re: Snooping esmb

    Quote Originally Posted by ThetanExterior View Post
    What I don't understand is how do people manage to stay UTR?

    When I was in I couldn't just sit at home doing what I wanted in my free time. I had to be in the org either on course, receiving auditing or just helping out in some way.

    There's no way they would let someone stay away from the org if they were considered to be in good standing. They would be calling them up constantly - "come in", "buy this", "donate this", "move up the bridge", "wear your hat as an FSM and bring someone in" blah blah.

    Maybe the orgs have gone into a state of apathy?
    Ya think? LOL I would like to indicate that your needle is floating - your tone arm flew off the dial and the emeter blew a circuit!

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