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Thread: Can you just stop?

  1. #11
    Gold Meritorious Patron afaceinthecrowd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome Rob View Post
    Hey Face! Thanks for the response, I very much appreciate the information (always do!). Of course my question wasn't just "can you just stop" (like "stop altogether") - I know that they will do anything to recover you if you blow or threaten to leave, like withholding family members, blackmail, a freeloader's debt, etc. What I was trying to figure out if you could be physically restrained from leaving, and it appears you can. What the fuck are those guards being told anyway? "Restrain this person or they'll destroy Scientology?"
    Yep! Pretty much in subtle and not subtle ways that is inferred or said...Along with the "fact" the "if that happens YOU will the one responsible for all eternity".
    Living is a Metaphor of Life

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  3. #12
    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome Rob View Post
    What I was trying to figure out if you could be physically restrained from leaving, and it appears you can. What the fuck are those guards being told anyway? "Restrain this person or they'll destroy Scientology?"
    When I was trying to leave from the RPF's RPF at PAC in 1996, this was a real situation for me. Despite having finished the required sec checks several weeks prior, I wasn't being allowed to go. I was contemplating causing a scene -- basically just standing there and yelling at the top of my voice until they let me go. I was advised against it and in the end didn't go through with it, although I got out within a couple of weeks.

    My thinking was, look, they can't just physically restrain me if I try to walk out: that's kidnapping (it's actually false imprisonment) and a felony and they wouldn't do that, surely, as I would make sure to let them know how illegal it was. What were they going to do -- kill me so I wouldn't talk about it?

    If someone is not violent, insisting on leaving, and very clearly pointing out they know how illegal it is to physically restrain them and would make it known to authorities if they weren't released soon, I think it would be very rare that they would not be allowed to leave once senior execs became aware of the situation. However, it takes a lot of balls and willingness to get declared etc to do something like that.

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    Goldenrod SP ThetanExterior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    To understand the way scientologists behave you have to understand how they think.

    Scientologists believe everyone has a reactive mind and it is this that causes all irrational thought. They also believe that scientology is "mankind's only hope".

    Therefore if someone has become a scientologist and then wants to leave, it can only be because their reactive mind is taking control. To them, if a person knows about scientology and is using their analytical mind they will obviously not want to leave scientology.

    So to answer the question about what the guards are thinking when they restrain someone who wants to leave - they probably think the person's reactive mind has taken control and the person needs to be restrained until some scientology tech can be applied to him/her. Then the person's analytical mind will resurface and they will obviously want to stay in scientology.

    It's like in the outside world someone saying they want to kill themself. You wouldn't just tell them to go ahead, you'd try to stop them and get them some help. That's what the guards are doing.

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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome Rob View Post
    Hey Face! Thanks for the response, I very much appreciate the information (always do!). Of course my question wasn't just "can you just stop" (like "stop altogether") - I know that they will do anything to recover you if you blow or threaten to leave, like withholding family members, blackmail, a freeloader's debt, etc. What I was trying to figure out if you could be physically restrained from leaving, and it appears you can. What the fuck are those guards being told anyway? "Restrain this person or they'll destroy Scientology?"
    First off I want to correct my first posting as I was responding not to leaving 'the hole' specifically but rather to INT BASE and that as a USA government condoned gulag run by Scn INC and supported in part by American taxpayers dollars. A .'foreign state' if you will, run with no regards to the US Constitution, within and on USA sovereign nation property.


    As regards "What the fuck are those guards being told anyway? "Restrain this person or they'll destroy Scientology?" ; I would say that the framework for the guards goes something like the following.

    Scientology [Hubbard's psycho-POLITICAL movement] is the only game where everybody wins. So if someone says or acts like they want to just up and leave then they are thinking and acting towards succumb for both themselves and for all on planet earth and beyond. And because scientology's aim is to free everyone and make them survive eternally [as hubbard's slaves] anything counter or otherly desired must acted upon so as to save that person and all beings from such ridiculous human rights and forward hubbards right to make have and play and torture etc those slaves to satisfy his unsatiable lust for power and money.
    Of course some people would call this bullshit PR but really it was hubbards malignant narcissism wrapped up as' positively the best thing going for one and all' and the malignant aspect is something held in common by those who condone it explicitly or complicitly.

    There are some video's which show different aspects and tell of what was expected of the scn gang of enforcers called guards, ethics officers, Keeper of the Tech, course Supervisors, C/S's of the Introspection rundown, Hole guards, RTC, DM and on and on although a lot it farmed out to tax specialists like Monique Blinky and other high paid lawyers of injustice repute.

    I would like to see a few of those videos here to add a little electronic photon mass and maybe even a hat pack of the guards to help you....see the reality of all this. Forget the fake news, just the cold brutal hard 'scrawlings and spewings; of shyster hubbard and his despicable offshoots.

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    Gold Meritorious Patron AngeloV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    I experience this first-hand at Flag.

    If someone foolishly told an auditor or their commander that they were contemplating blowing, they were assigned a 'minder'. This was a person who accompanied the potential 'blower' around the entire day to insure they did not leave. The potential blower was assigned an ethics condition of 'treason' or 'enemy' and made to do the idiotic steps to get brainwashed into staying because of 'the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics' nonsense. Is this physically stopping a person from leaving?...you decide.

    Having seen that, I took precautions of never telling anyone of my plans to blow and secretly prepared to do so. I escaped at 4 in the morning when everyone was sleeping (exhausted from the 16+ hour days). There was no way I was putting myself in the situation of having a 'minder' follow my ass everywhere.
    A.V.
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  11. #16
    Oh, a wise guy,eh? F.Bullbait's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    In the 70's, when I was in the SO, I was a bad boy...




    And, for me, getting physically out was not a big problem.

    But getting mentally out was another thing altogether.

    I had never really bought the whole package yet it did take several years to disentangle mentally from Scientology 'reality'.




    Last edited by F.Bullbait; 18th April 2017 at 06:02 PM.
    "Go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company." –Mark Twain

    "Religion and theology must not be confounded. Religion is not doctrine, but a new birth." - R. Falckenberg History of Modern Philosophy (on German mysticism).

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  13. #17
    Sponsor Veda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Besides Scientology's litigious nature - and it being designed and operated as a deceptive and ruthless psychological-political operation which "asserts and maintains dominion over thoughts and loyalties" - fraudulently asserted religious cloaking is a large part of the reason why Scientology escapes being held accountable for its actions.

    There's a news story from southern California, from some years ago, about a family that kept another family member chained to a bed and imprisoned in the house. At some point the police discovered this and intervened.

    This, in Scientology, is called "baby watch," and the people doing it at their home were Scientologists. To make a long story short, once the police learned that these were Scientologists, and Scientologists emphasizing that Scientology is "their religion," etc., the police became instantly meek.

    The police asked that the people not doing it anymore and slinked away.

    Perhaps someone can find this story as all I have is my recollection of it, but it's an example of Scientology's "religion angle" being applied.


    ___________


    'Leaving and leaves' by L. Ron Hubbard, 1976:

    "...informing fellow staff members that one is leaving is properly labelled a suppressive act."

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/sciento...cle1048136.ece

    From Professor Steven Kent's notes in his 'Brainwashing in Scientology's Rehabilitation Project Force', under the category of 'forcible confinement', addressing events mostly from the 1970s:

    "[Former Sea Org members]... spoke about either being forcibly confined themselves... or seeing others who were... Jesse Prince insists that he saw metal cages in the RPF's RPF in the basement of the [Los Angeles] Cedars Sinai building [Blue Buildings] where inmates 'were locked up at night to ensure that they wouldn't try to escape'. On the east coast, Dennis Erlich [while on the RPF] joked about his RPF assignment and, in accordance with Hubbard's policy [against joking about the RPF], wound up in the RPF's RPF in Fort Harrison's basement. Guarded down there for ten days, Erlich states that he spent the first two or three days locked in a cage... Tonja Burden swore, 'under pains and penalties of perjury' that she personally observed a person chained to pipes in the boiler room in the Fort Harrison building for a period of weeks... Likewise Hana Whitfield swore that, while she was on the RPF at the Fort Harrison [in Clearwater, Florida], Lyn Froyland was assigned to the RPF's RPF and was chained to a pipe down there [in the basement] for weeks, under guard. She was taken meals and allowed toilet breaks but no other hygiene'."

    My first experience, as a non-staff "public person," with someone being involuntarily held in a Scientology organization was second hand and occurred in the early 1970s. I heard about it from a still upset - and very naive - (Class IV, these days it's called Class V) Org staff member (I was naive too) who had encountered someone handcuffed to a large metal table in a part of the Org off-limits to the public.

    In those days, being in any way "on lines," and - suddenly and visibly - deciding to leave the premises of an Org was taboo. Why? It was explained that people who wanted to leave were becoming the effect of their reactive minds and that it was compassionate to restrain them from leaving ("blowing").

    As Hubbard had explained, "reactive minds do not have rights."

    Even auditing rooms were supposed to have the auditor seated nearer to the door in case the person decided to leave, so the auditor could stop the person from leaving.

    One was supposed to handle the person attempting to (visibly and suddenly) leave.

    Around the same time, there was also a minor PR flap around an incident where someone in the Org had suddenly "blown," and two staff members followed him out of the Org on to the street, and dragged him back into the Org. (Since the Org was in a large hotel - The Martinique Hotel in Manhattan - some "wogs" had complained to the hotel's management.) To the Scientological mind, this was an application of "8-C" or "good control." The person's reactive mind had forced him to blow, and Scientologists, connected to Source, the savior of the galaxy L. Ron Hubbard, etc. were applying the tech, and putting ethics in, by 8-Cing him back, so that he could be properly handled, and saved from the dwindling spiral, and eventually travel up the Grade Chart to Total Freedom.

    Scientology and false imprisonment:

    http://www.scientology-lies.com/imprisonment.html


    _______________



    Video on Religious cloaking - the affidavit:



    The complete document:

    http://www.lermanet.com/reference/brennan-dec.pdf


    __________

    Excerpt from the above video/affidavit on

    RELIGIOUS CLOAKING

    7. Based on years of work in the senior most legal bodies of organized scientology as covered above I have dealt with directly or supervised the handling of hundreds of legal matters involving the organizations of scientology which directly or indirectly had to do with using religious cloaking...

    8. It was determined that the only way to handle many of the legal matters in front of us and still apply Hubbard’s policies that had to do with staff, ethics, sales of services, money, delivery of services and the like was to develop and use a religious cloaking saying scientology was a religion, its services religious, its staff members of religious orders and the like. I can state without doubt that the overwhelming main reason that organized scientology developed and pushed its religious cloaking was to avoid a myriad of real or potential legal problems that would exist by following Hubbard’s policies if it were not considered a religion. By developing this religious cloaking for organized scientology it was hoped to avoid legal requirements around the world that might otherwise have to be followed that would make it impossible to follow Hubbard’s policies. In developing the religious cloaking for organized scientology, the following were considered a few of the “benefits” so that Hubbard policies could be applied. There are countless examples but the below are listed simply as a few of them:

    (i) minimum wages would not have to be paid;

    (ii) staff could be sent to different parts of the world and be able to stay locally as religious workers;

    (iii) standard employee rights, such as those found in laws like the Fair Labor Standards Act, could be discarded and thus Hubbard policies involving such things as ethics conditions, the Rehabilitation Project Force and the like could be applied without outside interference;

    (iv) less scrutiny would be allowed on the controls of the funds of scientology and the intermingling of funds between the corporations and other legal fictions of organized scientology;

    (v) it was hoped that the treatment of public scientologists and the use of their funds would be considered outside the purview of governmental bodies;

    (vi) couching the demand for and flow of monies within organized scientology using “religious” terms (such as by saying that clear cut mandatory payments for services were “fixed donations” and were mandated by the scripture of “exchange”) was hoped to cut off attempts by governments and others to look into them further...


    11. Two of the things that organized scientology felt were of the most importance in order to avoid compliance with many laws that were contrary to Hubbard policy were the religious cloaking as covered above and a corporate restructuring to make it very difficult if not impossible for outsiders to ever get to the main assets of organized scientology and to ensure that the real leaders of organized scientology could be insulated from legal liability by hiding their real controls behind a myriad of corporate and other legal veils. It was considered both a defensive and offensive strategy to have such cloaking (religious and corporate) in place.

    Defensively it makes it very difficult for individuals or even governments to force legal compliance of the many types of laws as covered above. It also makes it almost impossible to hold those that really control organized scientology responsible legally or to get to the financial assets of organized scientology spread out around the world. Offensively, it gives organized scientology a “safe base” from which to attack critics and/or anyone it feels is its enemy. Hiding behind religious cloaking and corporate veils it can act as a victim when people point out its crimes and injustices calling them “religious bigots” and even scaring governments, many of whom are not supposed to get involved with “religious matters”. By calling policies by Hubbard or Miscavige that are otherwise abusive or contrary to law “religious scripture” it was hoped to avoid legal scrutiny of same.




    _____________


    L. Ron Hubbard saw himself as a master of psychology.


    From Hubbard's 1946 (to himself) 'Affirmations':


    Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write...

    Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler.


    __________





    _________


    A few years later the book 'Science of Survival' was written, where the Hubbard Chart of Human Evaluation and Tone Scale were presented. One little twist was that placement of the person on the Tone Scale could be easily ascertained by noting the person's opinion of Dianetics, the Hubbard Chart of Human Evaluation, and the book 'Science of Survival', and, of course, its author.


    Wrote Hubbard in 'Science of Survival' of 1951:

    Those chronically below 2.0 on the Tone Scale should have "no rights of any kind," and, ideally, be "disposed of quietly and without sorrow," or at least be quarantined or isolated from society.


    ___________


    From 'Science of Survival: Prediction of Human Behavior' - by L Ron Hubbard, 1951:


    The reasonable man quite ordinarily overlooks the fact that people from 2.0 down have no traffic with reason and cannot be reasoned with as one would reason with a 3.0. There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale , neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes .

    The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale. Not all the beauty nor the handsomeness nor artificial social value nor property can atone for the vicious damage such people do to sane men and women. The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line — a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred — or simply quarantining them from the society.

    A Venezuelan dictator [Juan Vincente Gomez] once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country.


    This was an early expression of what, years later, would be formalized as Disconnection and the Fair Game Law.


    __________


    However, it wasn't until 1955, in his 'Manual on Dissemination of Material', that Hubbard began, formally, in writing, instructing Scientologists on such things as "attacking" and "ruining utterly."

    And his instructions in this area continued, with Hubbard developing special "tech" for various forms of attacking, overwhelming, dominating, influencing, deceiving, and manipulating.

    Much of this "tech" was directed at outsiders ("wogs") and at former members of Scientology who "squirreled," but much of it - in various forms - was also directed at members of Scientology in good standing.


    A question from Hubbard's Security Check for Scientologists of 1961:

    "Have you ever had unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?"


    Hubbard remained concerned with what he called "SPs," and wrote extensively on the subject. He wrote in 'Discipline. SPs and Admin' in 1969:

    "I am not interested in wog morality... I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher."


    Also in the late 1960s, Hubbard wrote about "taking over political guidance" by "taking over absolutely the field of mental healing."


    Those who were in a position to decide (and police) who is to be classified as "sane" or classified as "insane," and who had control over "mental healing," would rule, so the idea went.


    And From an LRH Executive Directive of 24 November 1968:

    "We're going to take over mental hospitals and political guidance and the whole field of mental healing [which includes criminal rehabilitation] It may take us years, but we've got the years. We've got the tech..."

    And finally, from Hubbard's 1969 'Intelligence Actions, Covert Intelligence Data Collection':

    "...take over absolutely the field of mental healing on this planet in all its forms...

    "Our total victory [over the 'psychs' and 'wogs'] will come when we run his organizations, perform his functions, and obtain his financing and appropriations."


    _________


    Then, one day in 1973, Hubbard made an announcement [Hubbard in red]:


    THE TECHNICAL BREAKTHROUGH OF 1973!
    THE INTROSPECTION RD

    I have made a technical breakthrough which possibly ranks with the major discoveries of the twentieth century. It is certainly the greatest achievement of 1973 and is now being released after a final write-up of the research. It is called the Introspection Rundown.

    ....

    In 1970 the actual cause of PSYCHOSIS was isolated... In the ensuing years this has been proven beyond doubt to be correct.

    But what is a psychotic break?

    Man has never been able to solve the psychotic break. In fact, human beings are actually afraid of a person in a psychotic break and in desperation turn to psychiatry to handle.


    [And here Hubbard goes on about psychiatry, ice picks, electric shocks, etc., then...]

    THIS MEANS THE LAST REASON TO HAVE PSYCHIATRY AROUND IS GONE.

    [Then there are the steps of the RD, and the HCOB ends with...]

    THIS PLANET IS OURS.


    [Then there's the HCOB of February 1974, titled...]


    INTROSPECTION RD
    ADDITIONAL STEPS
    ....

    ISOLATION


    In a person in a psychotic break, it is necessary to isolate them for them to destimulate and to protect them and others from possible damage...

    There comes a point where the C/S must decide to release the person from isolation. To do this the C/S must know if the person can take responsibility for his actions...

    The C/S's action is a direct comm line to the person by notes. The person is provided with paper and pen to reply. The C/S must determine the person's responsibility level. Example: "Dear Joe. What can you guarantee me if you are let out of isolation?"... "Dear Joe. I'm sorry but no go on coming out of isolation yet..."



    ______



    Randomly located on the Internet, here's Eileen Vernjack's SP Declare from 1972:






    "...they cannot be granted the rights and beingness ordinarily accorded rational beings..."


    There are many more "SP Declares."

    Now imagine being regarded as a "Suppressive Person," or its equivalent, while being INSIDE a Scientology organization.


    Hope this helps.
    Visit the Ex Scientologist Message Board web site for selected content from ESMB and more: http://exscn.net/

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  15. #18

    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome Rob View Post

    One thing I've always wondered, and I've never been able to figure out in all the stuff I've read. If you're in the Hole and you decide "fuck this, I'll leave all of my stuff and be declared", can you just go?
    Yes, you can. At Int one word of threatening to sue or report the church to police gets you ejected. People there are trapped by their mind. That's why it is no good getting police to do welfare checks. (like they did with Shelly M.) The people in the "hole" or otherwise just say they want to be there. It simply takes a decision. Many cannot confront telling anyone and so they sneak out at night.

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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    If you decide to leave as a staff member or public, in most cases it's relatively easy. You just stop showing up. Yes, there may be big problems with family and friends if they are in Scn, but the bottom line is you just tell them you are not going to show up any more, you are done.

    What you will face if you try to leave the Sea Org, will depend on a lot of factors.

    If you are just a low-level SO member, then you can try to route out, and you will spend months on the "routing out" form, meanwhile doing "MEST work" (cleaning stuff, etc). They will drag it out in order to get as much work out of you as they can, and as many opportunities to convince you to change your mind as they can do. If you blow, much will depend on circumstances and the mood of the people whose job it would be to try to stop you.

    If you are at Int, it's a whole different story, because DM will be directly involved.

    Marc Headley, in his book "Blown for Good", detailed his escape from Int Base. He said Base security tried to ram his motorcycle off the road in an effort to stop him.

    For people at the top, people from the Hole, people who (if free) could cause trouble for DM, who have knowledge of crimes -- I would not be surprised if deadly force was prescribed to prevent their leaving.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThetanExterior View Post
    So to answer the question about what the guards are thinking when they restrain someone who wants to leave - they probably think the person's reactive mind has taken control and the person needs to be restrained until some scientology tech can be applied to him/her. Then the person's analytical mind will resurface and they will obviously want to stay in scientology.
    Besides what ThetanExterior said, there's also the factor that someone who fails to prevent a blow can himself face serious consequences. The guards at Int do NOT want to face DM's legendary wrath if somebody important gets away.

    In my case, when I left Flag, I knew that routing out standardly would involve months of MEST-work and sec-checking. I also knew that, if I stayed much longer, it would be very hard to resume my pre-SO career. So I blew. As part of my preparations for leaving, I bought a knife. I was sufficiently determined to leave that I had decided that anybody who attempted to physically stop me was going to get cut. It didn't get to that point. I called my family and got a plane ticket pre-paid. My "study time" was right after my meal break, so I had a three hour window before I was missed on post. Instead of eating, I went to the airport, hid in the restroom until it was time to board my plane, got on the plane, and was in the air before anybody noted I wasn't back.
    “The man who does not value himself, cannot value anything or anyone.”
    ― Ayn Rand,

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    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngeloV View Post
    I experience this first-hand at Flag.

    If someone foolishly told an auditor or their commander that they were contemplating blowing, they were assigned a 'minder'. This was a person who accompanied the potential 'blower' around the entire day to insure they did not leave.
    So what does the minder do when the person says, ok, I'm off, and starts to walk out the door? Hit him over the head with a cosh?

    (I've been in that situation. It only works because the mindee goes along with it. More than once I waited around for the minder to show up so I could be "watched properly".)

    Paul
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