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Thread: Can you just stop?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    So what does the minder do when the person says, ok, I'm off, and starts to walk out the door? Hit him over the head with a cosh?
    One time, in an org, as a public, they had demanded that I pay for an intensive of "sec check" auditing. It was related to my querying why I should disconnect from a Scientologist who had been declared, because his declare order had not listed what he had done that justified getting declared. I kept asking "OK, but what did he DO?".

    They then demanded I pay for an intensive of sec-check auditing. My response was "Go ahead and sec-check me. I will submit to all the sec check questions you want. But I am not going to pay for it". I then attempted to leave the building.

    One of the execs called "HCO bring order!", ran ahead of me to the door, and locked the door. Then another staff member showed up with a police "billy club", with the obvious intent of whacking me if I should attempt to forcibly leave the building.

    So, depending on circumstances, yes you might literally face being "Hit over the head with a cosh". It happened to me. I think they wanted to provoke me into violent resistance, in order to have an excuse to declare me.
    Find out just what a people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. -- Frederick Douglass

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  3. #22

    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Face covered it pretty well.

    Rather than repeat my story, I'll say this:

    Being human and changing your mind about Scientology means somewhere along the way you're going to frown, ask a question, refuse an order, say something in session or to a loved one or friend or show a disagreement. To do it in complete silence and keep up an act for weeks or months without any verification, confirmation or agreement with your doubts or contact with outside folks is just not realistic. It's not what humans do. To get that far into it and then all the way out takes more than thinking it up in your head and keeping it a complete secret all by yourself. You have to read things, see things, discuss things to change your mind and it's gradual, not sudden. In the Sea Org, your mail is read, your phone calls can be recorded or overheard, your schedule is tightly controlled and staff around you are in the habit of reporting anything you say or do that might be ''entheta." That's in addition to the random checks if your stats are down or because your senior may not like you.

    Leaving takes planning, too - how to get your family to leave with you, if you can, what to say to them and if you can, where to go, how to get money, where to stay, etc.

    So a person leaves a trail that shows they are ''disaffected" and that can (and usually does) often mean higher security on you, sec checks, investigations, lower conditions, ethics, family pressures to change your mind, and even RPF. At that point, you can't just walk out. I certainly couldn't.
    "Looking back on it I think I got these gains only because the processing made me self reflect and try to repair the damage done by it. So I made gains in spite of Scientology not because of it. It's better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not."

    - Cleared Cannibal


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  5. #23
    Gold Meritorious Patron WildKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPier View Post
    Yes, you can. At Int one word of threatening to sue or report the church to police gets you ejected. People there are trapped by their mind. That's why it is no good getting police to do welfare checks. (like they did with Shelly M.) The people in the "hole" or otherwise just say they want to be there. It simply takes a decision. Many cannot confront telling anyone and so they sneak out at night.
    The sentence in bold above is WHY, in a nutshell, abused people don't just leave.

    If you've been indoctrinated to think that Scn is good and the only reason people leave is because of their overts, you will not want to rock the boat or bring bad PR on the group, because everyone will know it's only because of your OWs. Bringing disrepute onto the PR of Scn by blowing, or hurting the group, or making a scene, is something that a true believer will NOT do. No one wants to see themselves as an SP, so only true desperation, sinking to the bottom of the depths of depression and not caring about their own life anymore, will allow a true believer to break the indoctrination and just blow, and not "route out properly". (See note below*)

    An exception would be someone who has not been in long enough to become a true believer. That's why Hubs said "if they're going to quit, let them quit early." The longer they stay in, the harder it is to break that indoctrination.

    The bars of the cage that has been set up in their minds, is stronger than any outside influence. Hubs knew this, and used it.

    *the Routing Out process is totally designed to reinstall the mental bars of the true believer, so that they see that staying in is the greatest good and only a degraded SP would even think about wanting to leave. That's the end goal of the routing out checklist.
    Dismayed and confused by terrorist attacks? Educate yourself and take action. https://www.theobjectivestandard.com...inst-the-west/

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  7. #24
    Comfortably Numb strativarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    I don't really know why I'm posting this other than to draw a contrast with what things were like back in the mid-70's to how they seem to be now.

    I was sent to the Saint Hill RPF around September '73 '74, and half way through that experience I was considering calling it a day. My wife at the time was working in FOLO. She was pretty new to scn and wasn't as committed to it as I had been, so asking her to quit wasn't going to be much of a problem.

    I couldn't really contemplate leaving until I'd completed the RPF and routed out properly, (this was my thinking, it wasn't imposed by any external forces. Blowing the RPF would confirm the fact that I was a useless DB and I wasn't going to let that happen) but within a week or so of my 'graduating' we'd stuffed what few possessions we had in the car and simply driven out of the gates and were gone. Just like that. There was little or no security in those days, these sec. checks I read so much about were very rarely carried out, and I never felt for a moment that anybody would be pursuing us and would try to bring us back.

    How very very different things were then to how they are today.
    Last edited by strativarius; 19th April 2017 at 02:44 PM.
    To err is human, to purr is feline - Alexander Pope

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  9. #25
    Gold Meritorious Patron WildKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by strativarius View Post
    I don't really know why I'm posting this other than to draw a contrast with what things were like back in the mid-70's to how they seem to be now.

    I was sent to the Saint Hill RPF around September '73, and half way through that experience I was considering calling it a day. My wife at the time was working in FOLO. She was pretty new to scn and wasn't as committed to it as I had been, so asking her to quit wasn't going to be much of a problem.

    I couldn't really contemplate leaving until I'd completed the RPF and routed out properly, (this was my thinking, it wasn't imposed by any external forces. Blowing the RPF would confirm the fact that I was a useless DB and I wasn't going to let that happen) But within a week or so of my 'graduating' we'd stuffed what few possessions we had in the car and simply driven out of the gates and were gone. Just like that. There was little or no security in those days, these sec. checks I read so much about were very rarely carried out, and I never felt for a moment that anybody would be pursuing us and would try to bring us back.

    How very very different things were then to how they are today.
    The bold part above has not changed, i.e., the indoctrination that made you think that thought.
    Dismayed and confused by terrorist attacks? Educate yourself and take action. https://www.theobjectivestandard.com...inst-the-west/

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  11. #26
    Comfortably Numb strativarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by WildKat View Post
    The bold part above has not changed, i.e., the indoctrination that made you think that thought.
    Back in the day, the 'indoctrination', as you correctly describe it, was deemed enough to control the thoughts and emotions of staff. These days it is backed up by heavy-handed ethics and a culture of fear and intimidation that is far worse than it was in my time. We actually had a few fun times as staff-members, yes, even on the RPF, but anyone who has the misfortune to be a staff member currently has my wholehearted sympathy.
    Last edited by strativarius; 18th April 2017 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Edited an inexplicable attack of Mimseyitis where I'd written 'whole hearted'.
    To err is human, to purr is feline - Alexander Pope

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  13. #27
    Rabble Rouser Gizmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    When I was trying to leave from the RPF's RPF at PAC in 1996, this was a real situation for me. Despite having finished the required sec checks several weeks prior, I wasn't being allowed to go. I was contemplating causing a scene -- basically just standing there and yelling at the top of my voice until they let me go. I was advised against it and in the end didn't go through with it, although I got out within a couple of weeks.

    My thinking was, look, they can't just physically restrain me if I try to walk out: that's kidnapping (it's actually false imprisonment) and a felony and they wouldn't do that, surely, as I would make sure to let them know how illegal it was. What were they going to do -- kill me so I wouldn't talk about it?

    If someone is not violent, insisting on leaving, and very clearly pointing out they know how illegal it is to physically restrain them and would make it known to authorities if they weren't released soon, I think it would be very rare that they would not be allowed to leave once senior execs became aware of the situation. However, it takes a lot of balls and willingness to get declared etc to do something like that.

    Paul
    Ah, the risk of a yelling fit is it just might end up as a Type III handling ; you in a padded room ( old mattresses ) completely isolated for several more weeks.
    " You can't focus on anything without attracting more of it "

    "Contradictory beliefs cancel your energy because you have a built in mental conflict between the validity of one belief, expressing itself only at the direct expense of another belief".
    Mark Douglas

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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by strativarius View Post
    I don't really know why I'm posting this other than to draw a contrast with what things were like back in the mid-70's to how they seem to be now.

    I was sent to the Saint Hill RPF around September '73, and half way through that experience I was considering calling it a day. My wife at the time was working in FOLO. She was pretty new to scn and wasn't as committed to it as I had been, so asking her to quit wasn't going to be much of a problem.

    I couldn't really contemplate leaving until I'd completed the RPF and routed out properly, (this was my thinking, it wasn't imposed by any external forces. Blowing the RPF would confirm the fact that I was a useless DB and I wasn't going to let that happen) but within a week or so of my 'graduating' we'd stuffed what few possessions we had in the car and simply driven out of the gates and were gone. Just like that. There was little or no security in those days, these sec. checks I read so much about were very rarely carried out, and I never felt for a moment that anybody would be pursuing us and would try to bring us back.

    How very very different things were then to how they are today.


    Hubbard hiding out in Queens, New York, during 1973


    Looks like you slipped through the cracks around the time Hubbard was wanted for fraud in France, and had just returned from hiding out in Queens, New York, and was still recovering from his 1974 motorcycle accident on the Portuguese island of Madeira.

    In 1973, the name of Security Checking had been changed to Integrity Processing and Integrity Processing was being sold as a confidential new (and exciting!) technical development by (Hard Sell trained) Scientology sales people.

    Scientology was still in covert mode re. Security Checks as a result of the Public Relations "flap" that occurred in the late 1960s.

    Hubbard, as a PR action, "cancelled" Security Checking, Disconnection, and Fair Game, in late 1968, however these cancellations were cosmetic (fake), although some staff members, and even some executives or officers, didn't understand that.

    Occasionally, at certain times, or in certain locations, things would become "loose" in Scientology. It would never stay that way.

    In January 1977, Hubbard brought back the name Security Checking and reemphasized its importance - criticizing the (PR) name change to "Integrity Processing" - although Security Checking was still kept somewhat undercover and usually called a "Confessional."

    As has been shown elsewhere, Disconnection was never discontinued, obviously SP Declares and Fair Game were not discontinued, and Security Checking never really went away.

    The basic Destructive Cult model - finalized in 1974 with the RPF - has been remarkably stable, although the inevitable loose spots do occur.
    Visit the Ex Scientologist Message Board web site for selected content from ESMB and more: http://exscn.net/

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  17. #29
    Sponsor Veda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by strativarius View Post
    Back in the day, the 'indoctrination', as you correctly describe it, was deemed enough to control the thoughts and emotions of staff. These days it is backed up by heavy-handed ethics and a culture of fear and intimidation that is far worse than it was in my time. We actually had a few fun times as staff-members, yes, even on the RPF, but anyone who has the misfortune to be a staff member currently has my wholehearted sympathy.
    Even in 1968, people were having fun in Scientology.

    Visit the Ex Scientologist Message Board web site for selected content from ESMB and more: http://exscn.net/

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  19. #30
    Gold Meritorious Sponsor HelluvaHoax!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you just stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by strativarius View Post
    Back in the day, the 'indoctrination', as you correctly describe it, was deemed enough to control the thoughts and emotions of staff. These days it is backed up by heavy-handed ethics and a culture of fear and intimidation that is far worse than it was in my time. We actually had a few fun times as staff-members, yes, even on the RPF, but anyone who has the misfortune to be a staff member currently has my wholehearted sympathy.

    Yes!

    We of the staff of the Church believe that:

    We staff members are Clearing the planet!

    We staff members are Salvaging This Sector!

    We staff members deliver the miracles of auditing/training to everyone!

    We staff members are doing all these things so that everyone can be Totally Free!

    We staff members are doing all these things so everyone can can achieve unprecedented happiness!

    Everyone except we staff members.

    Because we staff members have screwed up Ron's brilliant plans, squirreled Ron's ingenious technology and failed to stop our miserable sabotage of Ron's dream by our counter-intention and evil purposes.

    We staff members therefore do not deserve the Total Freedom and unprecedented happiness.

    We staff members greatly prefer threats, poverty, lower conditions, RPF, deprivations, overboards, chain lockers, imprisonment, psychological terrorism, physical beatings and other likewise quite vital technical actions to control our bank dramatizations.

    We staff members are the downstats of the world, and as such we appreciate the fact that some time in the distant future, up the time track, we might possibly earn back our eternities--once we have a proven track record of making things go right along with consistently soaring upstat graphs.

    We staff members are forever grateful that senior management uplines have given us this slim but precious opportunity to be free and happy like the rich public and famous celebrities that we service.

    We staff members are also humbled in the knowledge that our Commodore and COB have suffered mightily like we have--because they too have taken vows of poverty and denied themselves every conceivable MEST freedom, pleasure and luxury--so that we staff members might receive and enjoy these earthly blessings first.
    ________________________

    Scientology literally saved my life! Without Ron's books I would have frozen to death!!! (see avatar)

    Scientology in one word? HelluvaHoax!

    I never felt as free as when I freed myself from "Total Freedom".

    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

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