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Thread: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

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    Silver Meritorious Patron TheOriginalBigBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerB View Post
    Ummmm, didn't the Hubbs say something about a psycho can be enthusiastic, even excited about being destructive??
    In a policy letter where LRH was discussing relativism of ethics and morality I think he said something to the effect that a thief would consider it an overt not to steal when there was an opportunity and for a murderer an overt not to kill a policeman ...or some such.

    I happen to agree with this, but then the best lies contain an element of truth.

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    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    I took this chart from Clearbird, and reformatted it for our discussion. It originally appeared in the book Self Analysis.
    http://www.clearbird.org/ClearbirdE2...tone_scale.htm

    He says, "Here are some observable characteristics on the most important levels:"

    Tone / Characteristic Behaviour Speech Reality How literally things are taken Method used to handle others Condition of belongings
    4.0 Enthusiasm Excellent at executing things (work, plans). Quick reaction (relative to age group). Capable of easily exchanging ideas and beliefs. Can see others' reality. Searches for different view points and a change of reality. Can easily differentiate facts from fiction - as jokes or lies. Gains support by contagious enthusiasm backed by reason. In excellent condition. In excellent repair.
    3.3 Strong Interest Good at executing things (work, plans), also sports. Will talk about 'deep' beliefs and ideas. Will accept or consider them. Can understand others' reality and change viewpoint. Agreeable. Good grasp of statements. Good sense of humor. Gains support by creative reasoning and communication. In good condition. In good repair.
    3.0 Conservatism Fair amount of action. Sports Limited number of personal ideas, tentatively presented. Acknowledges the existence of possible other realities. Conservative. Can sort out the real meaning of statements. Gets support by practical reasoning and built up 'connections'. Fairly good.
    2.5 Indifference, Boredom Somewhat inactive, but capable of action. Easy-going on pointless conversations. Listens only to ordinary affairs. Indifference or refusal to match conflicting realities. Too careless to agree or disagree. Accepts little, literally or not. Tends to take humor literally. Not concerned about support from others. Shows some signs of neglect.
    2.0 Antagonism, Expressed Resentment Capable of destructive and some constructive actions. Talks in threats; invalidations. Listen to threats. Invalidation of theta. Verbal doubt. Disagrees. Defends own reality and undermines others'. Accepts threats and remarks of tone 2.0 literally.Accepts threats and remarks of tone 2.0 literally. Nags and criticizes bluntly to get compliance and acceptance.Nags and criticizes bluntly to get compliance and acceptance. Very neglected.
    1.5 Anger Capable of destructive action. Talks mainly of death, destruction and hate. Disagrees with or destroys reality of others. "You are wrong!" Takes alarming statements literally. Brutal sense of humor. Uses threats, punishment and lies to get own way and to dominate. Often broken. In bad repair.
    1.1-1.0 Unexpressed resentment, Fear Can do minor actions. "Sweet talks" with vicious intent. Bad listener, but likes gossip, doubletalk and lies. Insecure. Doubts own reality. Skeptical of others' realities. Doesn't like to listen to anything. Tends to take things literally, responds with doubletalk. Seeks hidden control; blackmails and nullifies others so they can be used. In poor condition.
    0.5 Grief to Apathy Can only execute relatively uncontrolled action. Talks little; only speaks in sad or apathetic tone. Listens to apathy or pity. Easily overwhelmed by others. Doubts own reality. Shame, anxiety. Literal acceptance of any remark of this tone (0.5). Cries for pity. Wild lying and 'scenes' to gain sympathy. Usually in very bad condition.
    0.1 Deepest Apathy Alive as a body, but almost no action. Does not talk. Does not listen. No reality. Complete withdrawal from others' reality. Accepts anything literally. Pretends death to avoid others and dangers. Does not care for belongings or realize ownership.

    So without being too nitpicky, in general terms does this seem accurate? Inaccurate? Off the wall?

    Paul
    PaulsRobot Iconic now available for use at www.PaulsRobot2.com. With Auto-Report. Video here. Introductory post here. Debug post here. Dipoles post here.

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    Gold Meritorious Patron WildKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    New converts to Scn seem to really get a kick out of learning about the tone scale and judging their friends and family and strangers with it. Apparently it's fun to slap labels on people.

    The more one stays in Scn, however, the more pernicious it becomes. You have the datum that Scn is supposed to raise people on the tone scale, you also have the datum that if you aren't getting more uptone with Scn then there's something wrong with you like PTSness or SPness.

    So you eventually have "senior Scientologists" who've spent years in the cult "going OT" but not feeling very OT and they're trying to artificially appear uptone to keep the illusions alive.

    In other words, lying to themselves and others about how great and happy they feel after spending years in an indoctrination cult, being near bankruptcy, losing friends and family due to disconnection, etc. But you better LOOK and ACT uptone or risk an expensive trip to ethics to find your overts!

    Isn't that something to be enthusiastic about! How theta! How uptone!
    Dismayed and confused by terrorist attacks? Educate yourself and take action. https://www.theobjectivestandard.com...inst-the-west/

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    Silver Meritorious Patron TheOriginalBigBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by WildKat View Post
    New converts to Scn seem to really get a kick out of learning about the tone scale and judging their friends and family and strangers with it. Apparently it's fun to slap labels on people.

    The more one stays in Scn, however, the more pernicious it becomes. You have the datum that Scn is supposed to raise people on the tone scale, you also have the datum that if you aren't getting more uptone with Scn then there's something wrong with you like PTSness or SPness.

    So you eventually have "senior Scientologists" who've spent years in the cult "going OT" but not feeling very OT and they're trying to artificially appear uptone to keep the illusions alive.

    In other words, lying to themselves and others about how great and happy they feel after spending years in an indoctrination cult, being near bankruptcy, losing friends and family due to disconnection, etc. But you better LOOK and ACT uptone or risk an expensive trip to ethics to find your overts!

    Isn't that something to be enthusiastic about! How theta! How uptone!
    Right on!

    It's called BIs (Bad Indicators). And it is virtually a crime. Dressing somebody down to further Command Intention is OK. That is being Tone 40, pure theta intention, but going around burned out, hangdog, after your life has been reduced to slavery will land you in ethics. So here you have all these people trained in the Tone Scale, they have all read and drilled Science of Survival to know what is and isn't considered a politically correct attitude - masking the way they really feel.

    If the Tone Scale is a workable technology then the Scientology community should be the ultimate visible living example of it's benefits. Can we honestly step back and observe anywhere where this is the case? The most recent kerfuffle over the land deal with the City of Clearwater is choice. By all accounts, Clearwater should be a blossoming oasis of up-toneness by now where everyone understands the true value of Scientology to the community. It should be an OSA dream gig where you just get invited to official functions to eat the best smoked salmon and glad hand pols.

    Emotions exist, therefore it is reasonable to define an emotion. We can define any emotion down to it's most intricate details - but, that is a completely different thing from saying that it is a scale that follows some inviolable universal law which can be predicted and controlled. This is where it cultivates stereotyping and bigotry.

    As long as I'm mentioning the Clearwater deal which now seems to have resulted in some unspoken embargo of downtown by SO crew, uniforms have always been a problem in Clearwater. Especially around meal time when staff only have 30 minutes or less to eat. If you are at the end of the chow line then by the time you get your plate you might only have a few minutes to actually eat. So they had this reoccurring image of a frantic rush of uniformed people sweating in the Florida humidity heading to the mess hall. In the "Intro to the Sea Org" tapes, LRH explains that the uniform is used because it subconsciously reminds people of earlier whole track efforts by people to do what Scientology is attempting to do and therefore instills ethics presence, respect and compliance in the wog world. LRH would have us think that a disregard for the Sea Org uniform is based on a whole track fixed idea, a service facsimile, that causes us to resist all and any control - but the reality is that people naturally recognize irrationality and feel revulsion when it is used to manipulate them. What is it about LRH's understanding of the Tone Scale that caused him to inflict a fake military occupation on Clearwater?

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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerB View Post
    Ummmm, didn't the Hubbs say something about a psycho can be enthusiastic, even excited about being destructive??
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat's Squirrel View Post
    From what I remember about *sociopathy, sociopaths have an emotionally barren inner life, partly because they cannot feel empathy for others; although they can experience states of intense excitement, they do not experience the highly differentiated emotional states that normal people report. Also, their suicide rate is above average (I know, get out the violins), which isn't very pro-survival.

    Having said that, if the Tone Scale is a simplistic way at looking at one's emotional life it's possible that you're right that they can be uptone by that yardstick.

    *I'm assuming that sociopathy = psychopathy here; others may disagree.
    I'd go with RogerB on this one. I don't know of any actual data (versus opinions) that would confirm that sociopaths and psychopaths don't feel the full range of human emotions, they just feel their emotions for selfish and destructive reasons. An inability to empathize with others doesn't affect that, and empathy isn't even on the Tone Scale, anyway, so L Ron considered it unnecessary. That says a lot.

    The assumption that people feel good emotions for good reasons and then behave in a good way is false. It's not even related.

    A man can cheat on his wife in action or enthusiasm. A kleptomaniac shoplifter can feel complete and at peace only after a success stealing binge. A scammer will feel powerful, in control and energetic when he knows he's winning at fooling a group and is about to bilk them out of a lot of money. There are endless examples. Any correlation between upbeat emotions and good behavior only exists when good people are already behaving, but since everyone has the capacity for mischief, the emotions are unrelated to the behavior. A person can feel good about mischief or even "hurting another in a just cause" which can actually be unjust, vicious and cruel.

    The entire Speech and Reality columns and a few others on the Chart are attitudes unrelated to emotions. Someone in grief over animal pain can be a spectacular supporter of anti-cruelty groups. Sure, generally, people function better when they are more uptone. That's not always true, though. Some people need to get angry to get past the inertia of boredom to get anything done.
    "Looking back on it I think I got these gains only because the processing made me self reflect and try to repair the damage done by it. So I made gains in spite of Scientology not because of it. It's better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not."

    - Cleared Cannibal


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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustSheila View Post

    The assumption that people feel good emotions for good reasons and then behave in a good way is false. It's not even related.
    Yah. I always had issues with the tone scale in this regard. The line in the org was that if someone is in enthusiasm, then they are going to be making pro-survival decisions along the dynamics, and are trustworthy. That wasn't always my experience. I have met many people who come across as "high toned", and who simply couldn't be trusted. In some cases, they were almost guaranteed to betray you when they had the chance. I've also met many people who were quite powerful as personalities, or had very high IQs, and again, COULDN'T BE TRUSTED. They would use their personal dynamism and/or IQ to dominate the people around them. That made me discard the tone scale as a tool for picking friends. Tone level doesn't seem to be a reliable criterion for choosing people who won't betray you. IQ doesn't either. Which I found inconsistent with Scientology theory. After all, high toned people should generally be able to think more quickly (and hence have higher IQs on average), and people with high IQs should, on average, have fewer withholds (since O/Ws were supposed to reduce a person's IQ). So I don't think Hubbard's tone scale and the related Science of Survival charts can be completely right.

    I also had reservations about the lower tone scale, and the tone scale above exhilaration. Given how important it is, I found it bizarre that there was no real explanation given as to how he derived it? How does one know that hiding comes below needing bodies (or whatever it comes below)? Or that games is higher than action? or that these are even the higher tone levels. Plucked out of his ass, as far as I could see. Same with the conditions formulas. Plucked out of his ass, and in some cases (some of the lower conditions) the meaning of the formula steps wasn't even clear (does "find out who I am" mean find out who I am being that I shouldn't be being, or does it mean find out who I am fundamentally (but am not being at the moment)? Nobody in the orgs where I was knew. Everybody had a different interpretation. Supposing for a moment that Scientology is the true route out, Hubbard did a piss-poor job of explaining these important points, in my opinion.

    I choose people I can trust as friends. People who aren't trying to dominate you/control you/use you/betray you. That doesn't seem to be correlated with "tone level".

    W.

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    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustSheila View Post
    I'd go with RogerB on this one. I don't know of any actual data (versus opinions) that would confirm that sociopaths and psychopaths don't feel the full range of human emotions, they just feel their emotions for selfish and destructive reasons.
    These are the 20 traits from Hare (PCL-R) that are used clinically to assess psychopathy:

    • glib and superficial charm
    • grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
    • need for stimulation
    • pathological lying
    • cunning and manipulativeness
    • lack of remorse or guilt
    • shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
    • callousness and lack of empathy
    • parasitic lifestyle
    • poor behavioral controls
    • sexual promiscuity
    • early behavior problems
    • lack of realistic long-term goals
    • impulsivity
    • irresponsibility
    • failure to accept responsibility for own actions
    • many short-term marital relationships
    • juvenile delinquency
    • revocation of conditional release
    • criminal versatility


    Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv...#ixzz4gW2iDY4o


    The ones I highlighted would seem to me to indicate an incomplete full range of human emotions.

    Paul
    PaulsRobot Iconic now available for use at www.PaulsRobot2.com. With Auto-Report. Video here. Introductory post here. Debug post here. Dipoles post here.

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    Gold Meritorious Sponsor HelluvaHoax!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    .


    What tone level was it when Dr. Hubbard:

    --lied about Dianetics being a "science" with real research and clinical case studies?

    --promoted and sold the non-existent state and abilities of a "clear"?

    --pretended he was an advanced spiritual being with supernatural powers?

    --claimed that he was the authority on "exteriorization"--something he was unable to do?

    --bragged that he alone had discovered and solved mankind's tragic ruin--Xenu's BTs?

    --imprisoned a hysterically crying 4 year old into a chain locker for days?

    --went on the run from authorities and civil lawsuits by hiding in a motorhome?

    --treacherously conspired to falsely imprison, drive insane and/or murder Paulette Cooper?

    --chronically "stole valor" by claiming to be a doctor, nuclear physicist, war hero and galactic savior?



    I guess that's enough tone-level spotting for one post.

    Any other questions about Hubbard's high-toned lying, fraud and sociopathically sadistic treachery?
    ________________________

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    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

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    Oh, a wise guy,eh? F.Bullbait's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    These are the 20 traits from Hare (PCL-R) that are used clinically to assess psychopathy:


    • glib and superficial charm
    • grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
    • need for stimulation
    • pathological lying
    • cunning and manipulativeness
    • lack of remorse or guilt
    • shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
    • callousness and lack of empathy
    • parasitic lifestyle
    • poor behavioral controls
    • sexual promiscuity
    • early behavior problems
    • lack of realistic long-term goals
    • impulsivity
    • irresponsibility
    • failure to accept responsibility for own actions
    • many short-term marital relationships
    • juvenile delinquency
    • revocation of conditional release
    • criminal versatility


    Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv...#ixzz4gW2iDY4o


    The ones I highlighted would seem to me to indicate an incomplete full range of human emotions.

    Paul


    Sounds like the current US president.



    "Go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company." –Mark Twain

    "Religion and theology must not be confounded. Religion is not doctrine, but a new birth." - R. Falckenberg History of Modern Philosophy (on German mysticism).

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    Truman Show Dropout Operating DB's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by F.Bullbait View Post
    Sounds like the current US president.



    Damn! Same thing I was noticing while scanning down that list.

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