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Thread: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

  1. #21

    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur View Post
    Yah. I always had issues with the tone scale in this regard. The line in the org was that if someone is in enthusiasm, then they are going to be making pro-survival decisions along the dynamics, and are trustworthy. That wasn't always my experience. I have met many people who come across as "high toned", and who simply couldn't be trusted. In some cases, they were almost guaranteed to betray you when they had the chance. I've also met many people who were quite powerful as personalities, or had very high IQs, and again, COULDN'T BE TRUSTED. They would use their personal dynamism and/or IQ to dominate the people around them. That made me discard the tone scale as a tool for picking friends. Tone level doesn't seem to be a reliable criterion for choosing people who won't betray you. IQ doesn't either. Which I found inconsistent with Scientology theory. After all, high toned people should generally be able to think more quickly (and hence have higher IQs on average), and people with high IQs should, on average, have fewer withholds (since O/Ws were supposed to reduce a person's IQ). So I don't think Hubbard's tone scale and the related Science of Survival charts can be completely right.

    I also had reservations about the lower tone scale, and the tone scale above exhilaration. Given how important it is, I found it bizarre that there was no real explanation given as to how he derived it? How does one know that hiding comes below needing bodies (or whatever it comes below)? Or that games is higher than action? or that these are even the higher tone levels. Plucked out of his ass, as far as I could see. Same with the conditions formulas. Plucked out of his ass, and in some cases (some of the lower conditions) the meaning of the formula steps wasn't even clear (does "find out who I am" mean find out who I am being that I shouldn't be being, or does it mean find out who I am fundamentally (but am not being at the moment)? Nobody in the orgs where I was knew. Everybody had a different interpretation. Supposing for a moment that Scientology is the true route out, Hubbard did a piss-poor job of explaining these important points, in my opinion.

    I choose people I can trust as friends. People who aren't trying to dominate you/control you/use you/betray you. That doesn't seem to be correlated with "tone level".

    W.
    I think the tone scale is somewhat valid including upper levels 6-40.

    Something to take into account is indoctrination/education.

    Jihadism is a good example, one is indoctrinated into
    considering the most evil/counter survival actions as good.

    Scn indoctrination also has examples of the worshiping
    of counter survival actions. Fair game and disconnectioin
    as examples also the rejection of laws and fair play which
    deny the rights of others.

  2. #22

    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax! View Post
    .


    What tone level was it when Dr. Hubbard:

    --lied about Dianetics being a "science" with real research and clinical case studies?

    --promoted and sold the non-existent state and abilities of a "clear"?

    --pretended he was an advanced spiritual being with supernatural powers?

    --claimed that he was the authority on "exteriorization"--something he was unable to do?

    --bragged that he alone had discovered and solved mankind's tragic ruin--Xenu's BTs?

    --imprisoned a hysterically crying 4 year old into a chain locker for days?

    --went on the run from authorities and civil lawsuits by hiding in a motorhome?

    --treacherously conspired to falsely imprison, drive insane and/or murder Paulette Cooper?

    --chronically "stole valor" by claiming to be a doctor, nuclear physicist, war hero and galactic savior?



    I guess that's enough tone-level spotting for one post.

    Any other questions about Hubbard's high-toned lying, fraud and sociopathically sadistic treachery?
    I'll hazard a guess ...

    War is Peace - Freedom is Slavery - Ignorance is Strength. George Orwell
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire
    It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so. Robert A. Heinlein.

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  4. #23

    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post

    • lack of remorse or guilt
    • shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
    • callousness and lack of empathy


    The ones I highlighted would seem to me to indicate an incomplete full range of human emotions.

    Paul
    Okay yeh, I agree, as far as feeling emotions TOWARD others, i.e., responsiveness, definitely lacking. For the purpose of this exercise you laid out, though, empathy is not on the Tone Scale, and remorse or guilt are, interestingly enough, listed in the negative tones - Pity is -0.1, Shame is -0.2, Accountable is -0.7.For the upper tone levels, it seems sociopaths and psychopaths have the full range, even if they only feel those things selfishly. No differentiation was made by Hubbard, and it would seem he didn't value guilt, shame, accountability or any sort of empathy, either.
    "Looking back on it I think I got these gains only because the processing made me self reflect and try to repair the damage done by it. So I made gains in spite of Scientology not because of it. It's better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not."

    - Cleared Cannibal


  5. #24
    Gold Meritorious Sponsor HelluvaHoax!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Terril park View Post
    --snipped--

    I think the tone scale is somewhat valid including upper levels 6-40.

    For once, I can actually wholeheartedly agree with you!

    I think you have brought some much-needed science into the discussion about the validity of the Tone Scale. And, in doing so, you have confirmed that LRH was an extremely high-toned being.

    Because, Dr. Hubbard was chronically in "ACTION" (tone 20) when he was somewhat lying to, defrauding and terrorizing homo sapiens on this planet.
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    For offended Scientologists reading this blasphemy about L. Ron Hubbard---my apologies for talking about real life without lying to you, like Scientology, with goo-goo theta-talk. I know you don't have a floating needle right now. You're not supposed to.

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  7. #25
    Silver Meritorious Patron ILove2Lurk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    . . .
    The missing bit . . .
    Name:  tone.jpg
Views: 126
Size:  213.4 KB



  8. #26

    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustSheila View Post
    Okay yeh, I agree, as far as feeling emotions TOWARD others, i.e., responsiveness, definitely lacking. For the purpose of this exercise you laid out, though, empathy is not on the Tone Scale, and remorse or guilt are, interestingly enough, listed in the negative tones - Pity is -0.1, Shame is -0.2, Accountable is -0.7.For the upper tone levels, it seems sociopaths and psychopaths have the full range, even if they only feel those things selfishly. No differentiation was made by Hubbard, and it would seem he didn't value guilt, shame, accountability or any sort of empathy, either.
    I would say the various defs. of affinity cover empathy.

    The practice of auditing/psychotherapy must include empathy.

    Shame Hubbard didn't spell it out more clearly. If he had maybe Scn wouldn't be in such serious decline.

  9. #27
    Short of inspiration lotus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    The tone scal is in my opinion one of the most famous ridicule and dammaging $cientology legacy..

    No one has a chronic tone...

    Emotions coems and goes..being evolve, either in the better or the worst

    Emotions depend on many factors..including environement, life issues, challenges, attitude, thoughts...but are not inherent to the individual as the tone scale ''chronic tone'' would mean..otherwise..coming on this forum is very hazardous

    Emotions are only emotions...
    they are not the being..they are only a present time sensor related to feelings, sensations and other phenomanons..

    Therefore, relating an individual to a pseudo-emotional tone is ridicule, meaningless if only to reshape his behavior and goals in fitting some behavioral expectations of a totalitarian ideology.

    A perfect example of this is here;

    Featuring higher tone productive people vs a degrade low tone homeless
    an interesting look at the deep values and and human generosity displayed by such high\low tone individuals



    Beautiful beings don't alway wear beautiful clothes.
    But according to the $cientology tone scale they are criminals, degraded, out-ethics low tone beings..
    Last edited by lotus; 9th May 2017 at 01:56 AM.

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  11. #28
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    Anyway . . . .

    1. Are these emotions?
    2. Are they readily observable in people?
    3. Does the sequence seem correct, in that on a personal level does an emotion higher on this scale seem preferable to one lower down? [This question is complicated by Hubbard's idea that someone chronically above 2.0 is survival-oriented, and someone chronically below 2.0 is death-oriented]
    4. How about the Chart of Human Evaluation?



    Paul
    After reading this primer on Rhetoric: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/1...of-persuasion/

    I then proceeded to search for Hubbards tone (pathos) scale , how did he develop it, where did he get it from, these were my questions. I really wish I had access to his library and the boxes of material Gerry Armstrong saw, sort of like reverse engineering or as Arnie says how the con was done.

    Turns out Aristotle did have a list of emotions as found here but he did not put them in a chart or scale:

    http://spot.colorado.edu/~hauserg/ArEmotList.htm

    This is what I think, Hubbard came up with his emotions chart and Chart of Attitudes to make it all science sounding but also to persuade one to do Dianetics and later Scientology (expanded tone scale), after all achieving Tone 4 and the higher Tones is a very great sounding place to be ( the never never land). And with KSW we have only one route, or monopoly, Ron called it Ron's Brand and other brands are called squirrels.


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  13. #29
    True Ex-Scientologist programmer_guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Why are posters on this thread assuming that a human being cannot experience more than ONE emotion at the same time?
    The emphasis on finding and describing "knowledge structures" that are somewhere "inside" the individual encourages us to overlook the fact that human cognition is always situated in a complex sociocultural world and cannot be unaffected by it. - Edwin Hutchins
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hutchins

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    Default Re: The Tone Scale: How Valid Is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by programmer_guy View Post
    Why are posters on this thread assuming that a human being cannot experience more than ONE emotion at the same time?
    I think that is completely true. When I was first researching scientology on the internet, I was ecstatic about reading about others experiences and at the same time fearful of consequences if I were to be found out.

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