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Thread: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur View Post
    Maybe tr8theta will not see this reply, but I feel compelled to put in my tuppence worth anyway. At one or two points, I too felt like no longer posting here. I think tr8theta is right that the overwhelming tone on this board is of complete rejection of Scientology and its teachings, and also of the possibility that there might be anything good in the teachings. I myself don't feel that way about the teachings. I left Scientology because I felt that the organisation itself was noxious, and that it wasn't at all focused on spirituality. But I found much of interest, and some things that I considered to be valuable, in the teachings themselves. Perhaps the teachings have no basis in truth. Perhaps Hubbard just presented fiction as fact. Perhaps. But in that regard, I don't think it's any different from, say, eastern meditation. Are there really such things as chakras? Does the kundalini really rise from the chakra at the base of the spine, and rise to the chakra at the top of the head, resulting in spiritual gain? I doubt it. But I did find the idea in Scientology, for example, that you are responsible for all of the conditions in your life as intriguing, and maybe a useful way of viewing your life.

    I walked away from the church because the razzle-dazzle of the events seemed to have nothing to do with spirituality; the crush regging and the focus on silly amounts of money for services; the fact that reading about other things was viewed as "other practices"; and the fact that Scientology was viewed by the staffers as a replacement for life, rather than something that allowed you to IMPROVE your life. Stuff like this. I didn't leave because the ideas in the tech all seemed to be bollocks. When I saw Ron giving his interviews, he looked to me like a narcissistic loony. But I found good things in the tech. I can pretend that is not the case, to be more socially acceptable on this board. But in reality, I found (and find) Scientology tech to be a fascinating study.

    So I have empathy with tr8theta's viewpoint. This is not the board for discussing positive experiences that came from exposure to Scientology. Fair enough. Please don't rant at me. I know that people were bankrupted by Scientology (it messed up my finances, too). I know that 2nd generation Scientologists have a bad time. And I know that the orgs don't even try to delivery anything now, apart from IAS statuses. And that some people waste 30 years of their life in the SO, then realise they've been conned. But despite this, I can't redact the profound way in which studying Scientology influenced my world view. Some of that was negative. But some of it was positive.

    W.
    This is what I feel and I have trouble with it. Cognitive dissonance I guess. Maybe it is the white and white thinking we were taught. When I think of something good for me from Scn now I get a bad feeling , depressed I guess as I know it is mostly bad. It is really hard for me to sort the good from the bad.

    I do know when I realized that people actually believed and based their life on some of the wilder things LRH wrote I realized I was in the wrong place. If one really believed those things any atrocity can be justified. If Hubbard or now DM had real power in society he would make Hitler or Stalin or Mao or countless others look like a Sunday school teacher. By his every utterance being absolutely true, the saying about absolute power corrupting is applicable. He took some basic truths and good ideas camouflaged a brutal enslaving system. Really makes no difference to me if he came up with them or he stole them.
    It's better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not.

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  3. #102
    Crusader Gib's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    Quote Originally Posted by tr8theta View Post
    Hi
    As you know after I said that I would tell my story I then became hesitant to post my story because after reading so many anti-SCN and anti-LRH posts I didn't want to cause any upset or resentment with my "goodie goodie stories" of how it wasn't an overall bad experience for me....and I was waiting to see if more folks here wanted to hear them anyway...and some began tyo say "yes" but then TrevAnon posted this link - SEE BELOW) to my earlier post (of about 8 years ago?) which pretty much resolved the issue for me of to post or not to post. What I said back then is pretty much exactly what I would have said now....so I haven't really reneged per se...I was just trying to be considerate of others feelings and would rather not have a bunch of people not liking me here. Yesterday after spending considerable time here reading and reading post after post I felt bummed out by the overwhelming overdose of anti-SCN and anti-LRH sentiment when (just call me Mr. Naive)I had no clue as to the truthful reality of his total personage. It was nice to hear from some folks here that in spite of all the bad, they too - in retrospect - felt there was some good they got out of it. I'm just so glad I wasn't part of or ever exposed to the terrible atrocities other unfortunates experienced or I'd be singing a different tune. YOU have been a truly wonderful person making me feel very welcome here as well as a few others...thank you for that
    I feel better this morning especially after my wife reminded me last night that no matter what I read or hear...what's important is how I feel about my own experiences.
    I hate this world we live in - not that there aren't good people and beautiful places and even some pleasant life experiences - it's all the flipside- the ugliness and crimes and now threat of war (US-N.Korea) and it seems that no matter what religion or philosophy you look into or become part of there is always disappointment or you become disillusioned or like me "naive" about what's really going on with it until (like here) others bring it to your attention. Anyways...I see no point of returning here as I "got the point" (i.e. the general consensus is SCN-bad/LRH-bad) this time around and I really don't need to hear it over and over again and I have nothing to contribute to the anti-sentiment. I just hope that the future - whether in this lifetime or the next- is brighter and better for us all.
    Please don't bother to reply to this post to me directly as I will not be coming back here to read it.
    TR


    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthrea...033#post212033
    I hope you change your mind. You don't have to tell your story, you can tell parts of it here and there. I don't hate this world. Maybe I subscribe to this:

    You are at your best when things are worst


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  5. #103
    Gold Meritorious Patron clamicide's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    This is REALLY LONG--- got a tad carried away

    I haven't read the whole thread, yet, but I haven't been here in a bit and this happened to pop up at an interesting time. I'm sitting after hours at work. I just finished scrubbing down a bit of floor that was pretty disgusting--I work for a small non-profit and we were closed this week getting new HVAC system (YAY!!!) and took the time to do a deep clean.

    Earlier today, I was speaking with my son, and he was going over some things about his next steps in life and he's got some burn out and I looked over and saw a dish of buttons and made a joke about his demo kit. And it was OMG! he had flashbacks and we just started talking again about life on staff and how horrid life was-- and fuck what folks say about auditing, to me TRAINING is what was insidious. So--OK, if I throw away the pretty much slavery-type crap we went threw (and I don't really-but, it's not something I dwell on -- but, damn if I don't find myself behaving a certain way and catching myself because I operate as if I'm still under the 'eye of the cult' at times) So-- if I throw all that out? meh. Seriously.

    When I first came out, after reading all the stuff on Scientology (pro and con), I delved into whatever we 'weren't allowed' in Scio world. I did my astrological natal chart, read tarot cards, read psychology texts. I vividly remember sitting in the library and just going are you fucking KIDDING ME???? No wonder he didn't want us reading psych crap! Have the stuff that worked was lifted out of the stuff-- and yeah, it pre-dated the damn stuff I was learning. Did I get wins? HELL YEAH! I was the most blown-out little bunny in the universe! (however, in my case, I have a brain that can make connections incredibly quickly--but that doesn't mean ANYTHING!!! So, yes I would COG! Amazing cogs.... I have those reading Balzac now or meditating or shit--I've had them doing theater. So, meh. Not so meh, is because I would "Cog" F/N VGIS, a LOT of stuff because stuff in my psyche got touched. A lot of shit. Most of what I experienced--most of my 'wins' were kinda roads into dissociation because I was so happy and fluffy and YAY!!! underneath? So-- I've learned I'm a fucking verbal processor. Closest thing is ITSA. I have spent a lot of fucking time in therapist offices processing out crap that was 'handled' in the cult. Release pretty much seems rather close to dissociation to me. And so, we were always told that it fully gets handled at 'X' on the Bridge (whatever your next step was that you were supposedly dramatizing).

    Relationships, people--what got me in. "These people are too smart to be in a cult?" But, I've also seen so many folks who were the sweetest people turn sooooooooo nasty.

    Training. So, I don't give a damn what jewels they are teaching you in training. I'm in disagreement with the methods. It drills in non-thinking and compliance. If you question something, if it doesn't make sense--it's an m/u. Move, fidget--grab your dictionary. Grab your demo kit. Questioning the data is not part of the standard tech mantra. (false data stripping anyone? How come it's always the STUDENT that has the false data). Full-time training was something I dreamt of, and I felt like my soul was being sucked out. I was not a slow student--one of the best in the Acad. I think of those folks who do the rubber band CBT thing--and it kind of reminds me of study-- just use the dictionary or the demo kit to deter the unwanted behavior)

    When people ask how somebody could be so stupid to be in a cult? Well, most folks I met 'in' were intelligent (and research bears out that on whole, it's higher intelligence folks who do join cults) so stupidity isn't quite it. If we didn't get ANYTHING out of it, would we have ever done it? Or kept going? But, at some point, it was not longer joy or connections why I kept going--the world in a way outside, dimmed. It was the promise, the salvation and shit.

    So, I was sitting with my son and I was getting some advice and he said something about hate that it's Scio, but Confusion formula and we were talking about that--and but, like confusion 'handling' is also something that is found elsewhere--without being in a workplace where you feel 'lower conditions' are this insane part of your existence. And he just started talking about being a kid--and just that he had nothing (org pulled him out of school to be on staff) and it's his story, but he just was stepping back and blown away because he trying to grasp the extent of it. He has fought his way out and I credit him for his strength in helping me escape the mind fuck. I have to remind him sometimes everything he's done to be where he is--and how many people we left behind who are still not doing well, who have taken their own life, have died without health care, have lost their minds. So--uh... I think I could have lived without ever heard of a touch assist or obtained this 'mind-blowing' state of Clear I 'achieved'.

    So today, was disorganized. We've had staff changes. I'm sitting at work late--but, now I'm off the clock and hanging out charging my phone and listening to Queensryche. I had a therapy appointment yesterday--my work entails working with folks on a daily basis who have experienced trauma. Now that I think of it, not once have I thought of using the 'tech'. I have better tools now. Therapy works for me. I'm better at my job being able to verbally process. I was assaulted last week in April. Punched in the face. Knocked out. Fucked me up. I had been out of therapy--and went back after and awesomeness ensued again. And I'm laughing now, because I'm thinking if I was in the org--I'm Clear, so we wouldn't 'run it out'. I would get assists. PTS handle maybe for why I pulled it in--etc. Instead-- I went to the doctor. Instead of 'addressing the incident' we sort of talked about it--which led to all sorts of beautiful things and HOMEWORK (omg--for someone who processes verbally? NO CASE TALK OUTSIDE SESSION FEELS LIKE A MENTAL DEATH SENTENCE). I digress--

    Anyhow, I know I rambled. It's because I stayed up super late and knew I was going to be doing stuff that doesn't take brain power and the book I was reading was enthralling and I'm off the next 2 days upcoming. I used to stay up late on staff, practically manic because it was my only time that was MINE and when I woke up the next day it meant going in (or being hunted by HCO). I'm going into the doctor for my 'well-woman' checkup this week because I get to maintain my health now instead of enduring endless assists when I really needed a doctor, but was on staff pay and didn't have health insurance. Today I was scrubbing that fucking floor and-- I got paid for it. And I wanted to do it--I work for a place that has what I was looking for in the cult in that I'm doing work that I feel makes a difference and if stuff is messed up? I get to question it.

    I had to get over the whole OMG I wasted so many years of my life--- and go OK. Now what. Being on staff has made me more resilient. I made it out of being homeless because I knew how to deal with being abused on a much grander scale (to me) than I experienced in many ways out on the street. I appreciate a lot of stuff? ETA: of course--I was homeless because the 'powers that be' decided that my ex needed to kick me out of our home or be declared

    Life out hasn't been some beautiful fairy-tale. Fuck no. But, there is so much beauty and wisdom and knowledge and FUN and JOY along with the sorry and strife and day to day. I had the best birthday this year--I went to my son's house and him and me and his partner sat outside on the porch listening to No Such Thing as a Fish (podcast) as the evening drifted away after going out for dinner and hours of conversation. So...

    The tech? meh. the admin-- shoot me now. The HCOB on acting? Oh, hells no.... (did a bit of theater after getting out)
    I don't recognize you--I've changed a lot. Oscar Wilde

    "I used to have a lot of faith in humanity before the advent of the website 'comment' section" -- Jim Gaffigan

    I joined a religion started by a science fiction writer that used a double cross as its symbol, and then they tried to sell me a bridge.....what could have possibly gone wrong?

    We are soldiers of life against these artificial minds. From "The Enemy" by Tramontane.

  6. #104
    Crusader Gib's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    Hana here talks about her experiences on the Apollo, Scotsman. It would be nice of Tom to comment on them, maybe Tom has never seen these interviews

    Hana talks about Hubbard "implanting" with the idea she was a loyal officer. Hana also talks about how Hubbard wanted to take over Rhodesia and buy islands. Oh my.


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  8. #105
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    Quote Originally Posted by clamicide View Post
    <snip>

    When people ask how somebody could be so stupid to be in a cult? Well, most folks I met 'in' were intelligent (and research bears out that on whole, it's higher intelligence folks who do join cults) so stupidity isn't quite it. If we didn't get ANYTHING out of it, would we have ever done it? Or kept going? But, at some point, it was not longer joy or connections why I kept going--the world in a way outside, dimmed. It was the promise, the salvation and shit.

    <snip>

    Specifically, the cult of Scientology?

    1. There was no internet in the old days
    2. Most of us were young and naive
    3. SCN seemed so "sciency" (pseudo-science)
    4. One might feel better after a few TRs 0-4 or some robotic talk therapy
    5. Later there were those who were 2nd gen (parental indoctrination) which is a different story

    Feel free to add more items or disagree with me.
    The emphasis on finding and describing "knowledge structures" that are somewhere "inside" the individual encourages us to overlook the fact that human cognition is always situated in a complex sociocultural world and cannot be unaffected by it. - Edwin Hutchins
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hutchins

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  10. #106
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    IMHO ESMB itself has changed over the years. (And I think that's just the way it goes: it's not good or bad.)

    E.g. when it started out I think posting success stories was allowed. Of course there was criticism about them. Now, AFAIK posting success stories is no longer allowed, and most of the people who still value the tech have started their own boards, forums, blogs and whatever. That's just an example.

    If you are newly out, or if you've been out for years but never got a reality check about COS fraud and abuse like (I think) tr8 then the step to full blown criticism can be too big I guess.

    Marty's blog has long been a safe spot for people who first step out. Obviously, that is no longer the case.

    Milestone 2 is defunct.

    Mike's blog by now has almost gone through the same evolution as ESMB has. He has on more than one occasion said he no longer adheres to the tech.

    Places like WWP and the Underground Bunker have always been targeted at people who were never in or exes who are fully out.

    So as a never in I have a question: from an exes point of view, is there a place where people newly out can land safely, other than places like Ron's org and such? Because whatever you think about LRH and/or the tech: most people need some time to decompress. Where on the net can they do so?

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  12. #107
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    Quote Originally Posted by TrevAnon View Post
    IMHO ESMB itself has changed over the years. (And I think that's just the way it goes: it's not good or bad.)

    E.g. when it started out I think posting success stories was allowed. Of course there was criticism about them. Now, AFAIK posting success stories is no longer allowed, and most of the people who still value the tech have started their own boards, forums, blogs and whatever. That's just an example.

    If you are newly out, or if you've been out for years but never got a reality check about COS fraud and abuse like (I think) tr8 then the step to full blown criticism can be too big I guess.

    Marty's blog has long been a safe spot for people who first step out. Obviously, that is no longer the case.

    Milestone 2 is defunct.

    Mike's blog by now has almost gone through the same evolution as ESMB has. He has on more than one occasion said he no longer adheres to the tech.

    Places like WWP and the Underground Bunker have always been targeted at people who were never in or exes who are fully out.

    So as a never in I have a question: from an exes point of view, is there a place where people newly out can land safely, other than places like Ron's org and such? Because whatever you think about LRH and/or the tech: most people need some time to decompress. Where on the net can they do so?

    I believe they can (and always could) decompress here, if that's what they truly want to do. Hundreds of us have already done it and there are enough threads full of facts and docs to wade through that will help someone to put the jigsaw back together, but they need to get stuck in and do it for themselves ... those that come here specifically to try and resell exes, guilt trip people (for leaving the cofs and "criticising") or to attempt to convince people of "another version of scientology" will probably (and deservedly) cop a bit of flack, but (unless they're completely stupid) they already know that before they join and are probably only here to prove a point either to themselves or someone else about how awful we all are ... yawn.











    "I like pigs. Cats look down on you; dogs look up to you; but pigs treat you like an equal."

    Sir Winston Churchill.




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  14. #108
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate


    Quote Originally Posted by TrevAnon View Post
    IMHO ESMB itself has changed over the years. (And I think that's just the way it goes: it's not good or bad.)

    E.g. when it started out I think posting success stories was allowed. Of course there was criticism about them. Now, AFAIK posting success stories is no longer allowed, and most of the people who still value the tech have started their own boards, forums, blogs and whatever. That's just an example.

    If you are newly out, or if you've been out for years but never got a reality check about COS fraud and abuse like (I think) tr8 then the step to full blown criticism can be too big I guess.

    Marty's blog has long been a safe spot for people who first step out. Obviously, that is no longer the case.

    Milestone 2 is defunct.

    Mike's blog by now has almost gone through the same evolution as ESMB has. He has on more than one occasion said he no longer adheres to the tech.

    Places like WWP and the Underground Bunker have always been targeted at people who were never in or exes who are fully out.

    So as a never in I have a question: from an exes point of view, is there a place where people newly out can land safely, other than places like Ron's org and such? Because whatever you think about LRH and/or the tech: most people need some time to decompress. Where on the net can they do so?
    It depends what you mean by "safe."

    To use the current - in vogue - term, some people are "triggered" by any response at variance with their feelings. It affects them personally. They experience unpleasant bodily pressures and distressing emotions, almost as though their very existences are being threatened.

    The sad truth is that, if someone is that delicate, they're going to offended, or "triggered," somehow.

    I'm not a proponent of the "It's all B.S." school of thought, and I've explained why, in many ways, many times.

    But my "balanced" view is still regarded as "entheta" by those who have, deeply planted in their psyches, the meme of "LRH = Survival & well being" or "LRH tech = Survival & well being."

    I'll re-post the below paragraphs from long ago:

    Years ago, in the early days of the Internet, there was an idea of combining the news group "alt religion Scientology" (which was mostly "critical" of Scientology) with the news group "alt clearing technology," thus creating a place where the entirety of Scientology could be explored and discussed.

    ESMB is Scientology's worst nightmare: a place where Scientology can be thoroughly examined, described, and discussed in all its aspects.

    ESMB is a combination of seemingly irreconcilable opposites - defying the laws of human nature and perhaps the laws of physics - and providing a place where a complete description and discussion of Scientology is possible. That means that the "good" of Scientology can be described and discussed, as well as that which is lurking behind, and sometimes inside, the "good."

    This allows for a complete description of the multi-layered truth&goodness-disguised mind-trap of Scientology, and that's something Scientology most definitely does not want. And something that is very much needed.


    But it's easier said than done.
    Visit the Ex Scientologist Message Board web site for selected content from ESMB and more: http://exscn.net/

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  16. #109
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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    Hi Folks - been working away for a while so I couldn't post to ESMB on work computers. This meeting has a lot more going on around it.
    I met Bill around this time and it was a big warning sign as it was fairly obvious he was totally nuts.
    But look at some of the other people in that video; there are a few stories there.

    I'd almost forgotten how gorgeous Angie was!





    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    Maybe this will help explain.

    John McMaster, from a 1985 interview:
    "Hubbard used affinity to manipulate people.

    But it was always an apparent affinity really. He would say to people, 'You are the only one'. I have heard about a hundred people say that to me: 'Oh well, he told me I was the only one'.

    And people would never destroy their allegiance to Ron because he had told them they were 'the only one'.

    That's the way he manipulated people with affinity. They would be told they were the only one, and then he would tell them all sorts of stories about what a difficult time he was having with Mary Sue, and how they were the only one who understood, and what a difficult time he was having with the rest of the staff, and you're the only one...

    Of course he tried this with me, 'John McMaster, you are the only one'...

    Hubbard had brought me a copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica and put it next to me. And pointed out a thing he wanted me to read, and that was where Buddha predicts that a red headed man will appear in the West - Maitreya and so on. And his first disciple would be a 'disciple of love' - namely myself
    ."


    _______


    Hubbard had told Scientologists that they were "shifting gears on the universe" in 1952, and gave them The Factors, "Humbly tendered as a gift to Man." (Actually a re-write of an earlier statement by Aleister Crowley, but that's another subject.)

    He had let Scientologists know that he was the reincarnated Buddha in 1955, called himself "source" since at least 1961, commissioned the LRH bronze busts in 1963, starting referring to himself as "Mankind's greatest friend" around the same time.

    By 1965, he had written Keeping Scientology Working, of which we are all familiar.

    By 1967, on top of everything else, he made himself the "Commodore of the Sea Organization," that was "salvaging this sector of the galaxy."

    There's plenty of evidence that he knew what he was doing when he built himself up this way.

    In his private pep talk to himself, in the 1946 Affirmations, he affirmed his hypnotic power over others with his "psychology," his ability to "predict human behavior," and his words and the sound of his voice.

    Three years later, with Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health, he wrote of the "aberrative" power of an ally, and of the "aberrative" power of the urge to Survive.

    But who thought he would use these things on Scientologists? After all, he was warning them about these things.

    (IMO, Hubbard was a serious head gamer. And this is examined much more extensively elsewhere, and there are many more examples.)

    Who was the "greatest friend" (greatest ally)?; who was the source of the "tech" that was "the only hope for man"? and his survival?

    Hubbard had built one tall pedestal for himself. He built it and he used it.


    ________


    Captain Bill Robertson was also subject to this and was fond of telling people about the time he was taken aside by Hubbard and told, "You are the only being of comparable magnitude that I have known this lifetime."

    That zapped Bill Robertson for life.

    Captain Bill, a.k.a. Astar Paramegjian, founder Ron's Orgs in 1983:




    This is not a criticism of anyone. Anyone could have this happen. And I'm not saying it necessarily happened to you.

    You certainly had a terrific and unique adventure, but you did interact with someone who regarded himself as a master manipulator, and this may be something worth examining.

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    Default Re: Scientology - To criticize and discriminate

    Quote Originally Posted by clamicide View Post
    This is REALLY LONG--- got a tad carried away
    I love your rambles, they are real. Thanks!
    My Story - Becoming Free to Shine
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