Paying for services / training etc.

[Cat's Squirrel]

This has come up in the course of a discussion elsewhere on this board.

Few things in life come free, but some things are more affordable than others. I was lucky enough to learn *TM in its early days and whilst I was still at school, and paid just £5 for the privilege. It costs a whale of a lot more than that now.

Similarly, I consider that the courses I did in the Church, none above introductory level, were good value at about £30 each. I however baulked at the price of the Pro TRs course which was more than 20 times that of the introductory level comm course I did.

How much is auditing and training really worth? Should it be made available to everyone, or only to those who can pay the going price on the basis that those are the "able who are going to become more able"?

Over to you (needless to say, I'm only addressing those who don't think the whole thing's bull****).

*Transcendental Meditation.

[Zander]

This has come up in the course of a discussion elsewhere on this board.

Few things in life come free, but some things are more affordable than others. I was lucky enough to learn *TM in its early days and whilst I was still at school, and paid just £5 for the privilege. It costs a whale of a lot more than that now.

Similarly, I consider that the courses I did in the Church, none above introductory level, were good value at about £30 each. I however baulked at the price of the Pro TRs course which was more than 20 times that of the introductory level comm course I did.

How much is auditing and training really worth? Should it be made available to everyone, or only to those who can pay the going price on the basis that those are the "able who are going to become more able"?

Over to you (needless to say, I'm only addressing those who don't think the whole thing's bull****).

*Transcendental Meditation.

I say let the market decide, that is the only way to set a fair price. And that means allowing 'competition' and following all the consumer laws of the land.

The only reason they get away with charging exorbitant prices is because they are a monopoly and they use false marketing and manipulative selling techniques. All claims for the subject either explicit or implied should be examined and disallowed if inaccurate.

The other part of letting the market decide is ensuring that the product is described and sold fairly. This means amending all those grade and course "ep's" and replacing with something accurate. For example, grade 0: "ability to communicate with anyone about any subject": claim not allowed.

I believe if the above is followed the prices would be a lot fairer. But whether there would be any scn left is another matter.

But this would count only for the grades and levels. I've no idea how this would or could apply to 'ot' levels.

Zander

[Dulloldfart]

How much is auditing and training really worth? Should it be made available to everyone, or only to those who can pay the going price on the basis that those are the "able who are going to become more able"?

I don't know how to give an absolute answer to the question--it's like the question "How much is happiness worth?" Fortunately, it does not need to be answered. Maybe the CofS thinks it is valuable to survey what the highest possible amount they could screw out of you for some service is, but people outside the CofS delivering similar services and people wishing to get them have normal economic factors to play with.

The "going rate" is variable.

Paul

[Voltaire's Child]

The cult justifies the extreme and ever increasing cost of its services by saying that it's the value, the exchange factor, etc. (exchange being the Scn sense of the word which isn't fully comparable to the everyday sense of the word) Then they squeeze every last dollar out of their members to the extent that they can.

Here's how I look at it as someone who still gets auditing, etc (but who recognizes it's not for everyone.):

Scn, as philosophy, if not as movement/cult - is supposed to make life better. It's meant for the person, not the other way around. The idea is to break the cycle of death and rebirth, to get free as a being, and in the meantime, to improve life in small and medium kinda ways, to live life using Scn concepts and methods as enhancement and improvement only.

Spending so much money that one cannot have a decent home, decent car, decent clothes, or vacation time (which is not really a luxury. People need to do nice fun things with their friends and families.) and spending so much time that one cannot have a good family life, a social life, or ends up having to quit job after job because of the demands of Scn- do not improve or enhance life.

Really, a person would be better off not doing any Scn at all.

So it has to be balanced. Non CofS Scn'ists I know charge little. Not only that, but if someone really really wants help with getting to be able to be on a course or get auditing, they will actually try to get the person in for free. With no strings attached.

Or, look at other things that may've proceeded from Scn, that are great, but aren't Scn. Yawnguy. You see Paul charging for going to his site and trying that? No! And there are testimonials galore. And unlike CofS, Paul didn't push anyone into writing 'em, AFAIK. Is yawnguy valuable? Well, it sure is to the people who tried it and liked it!!

So sometimes something can be valuable but still be worked out so that it just isn't so almighty damn pricey and maybe sometimes could even be for free.

My husband (who is the most wonderful & brilliant man in the whole wide world - aside from present male company, of course) has a saying: "It depends on what you want to accomplish."

So if one really wants to free people, they won't take your last dollar. This does NOT mean I'm against anyone charging for services, like in the Freezone or in some of the other spinoffs. But you don't see anyone in TIR or Idenics or FZ or Knowledgism or any of these other things putting people into indentured servitude or trying to get them to mortgage grandma's house or max out their credit cards.

[Cat's Squirrel]

I largely agree with what's been said here. The freezone centre I attended in the UK used to price their services so that they would be accessible to families - auditing was £30 an hour, OT3 was £350 etc. The result was that people would go up the bridge to Clear very quickly (as opposed to the Church, where I knew someone on staff who'd been in for 20 years and still hadn't gone clear!).

The only downside was; because it was easy for people in reasonable jobs to get and pay for services, pretty much everyone just did that and there was very little training or taking courses. In the Church, people could afford training better than they could auditing so more people trained and learnt about the tech. I've heard it said that you get 50% of your gains in Scn from training.

I think a balance needs to be struck so that the FZ produces new and competent auditors as well as satisfied pcs.

[Dulloldfart]

I think a balance needs to be struck so that the FZ produces new and competent auditors as well as satisfied pcs.

Nice in theory, but how exactly does one strike that balance?

A FZer could say, well, I'm not going to audit you anymore until you have done through Class IV with me. What is to stop the person going to another FZer to get auditing who isn't so picky?

Paul

[Cat's Squirrel]

Nice in theory, but how exactly does one strike that balance?

A FZer could say, well, I'm not going to audit you anymore until you have done through Class IV with me. What is to stop the person going to another FZer to get auditing who isn't so picky?

Paul

Good question.

Standard tech courses are a very long hard grind compared to receiving auditing. Just think of the SHSBC with its "wall of tapes" by comparison with being audited up to that level and you'll see what I mean. I can imagine being sick of Ron's voice by the time I'd got through it, and I'm pretty pro LRH and the tech by non-CofS standards. Even my Student Hat course was about three months' work part time.

I can't believe that all that is necessary to produce an auditor.

Even so, that doesn't really address the point you've raised. Maybe if auditing / receiving services becomes respectable again, people will want to train up just as they want to become counsellors in other fields (such as Assagioli's Psychosynthesis), but it's a big if at the moment.

Perhaps it's an insoluble problem with the reputation of Scn as it is at the moment and likely to deteriorate still further. For now though, my focus is on finding tools that people can apply to themselves and perhaps to their friends and family with little or no previous background or training.

[Dulloldfart]

For now, my focus is on finding tools that people can apply to themselves and perhaps to their friends and family with little or no previous background or training.

Exactly. That's why I do the whole Paul's Robot Auditor thing, because it can be used by almost anyone with virtually no training at all, and no need to leave your home or even pick up the telephone.

If you're doing Scn stuff only, basic assists and non-metered auditing like Book 1 and Self Analysis doesn't take too long to train in on someone, but when you want to get more sophisticated than that the hours start to build up. You can manage with a read it-drill it-do it type environment quite well, but only if you have properly-trained people on hand to do any required bail-outs.

I will stick to the various Rub & Yawn processes used in my Robot. Far more useful than anything else I have come across.

Paul

[Cat's Squirrel]

Thanks, I'll give it another look.

[Feral]

Fluff,

The funny thing is in SCN. that the promise is increased freedom, happiness, increased creativity etc. etc. Then the reality is quite the reverse flow; contribute to the church ,join staff, help 'save' the planet, sign a billion year contract, give more money, then after all of ones original goals are supplanted with a purpose to support the church as much as possible, and ones hopes of freedom are a vague memory. There you find yourself at the top of the bridge a virtual slave to the organisation in debt and utterly under the control of the church in deed and thought. You can ask yourself; How did I get here?

That's when I got bright enough to ask myself; What does 'Total Freedom' mean?

A Feral is a previously tractable and manageable scientologist gone wild