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Thread: Current CofS vs Hubbard's CofS

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    Patron Meritorious asagai's Avatar
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    Default Current CofS vs Hubbard's CofS

    I am an ex from Hubbard's days of running the church and when newer exes come out saying DM is the cause of the "bad" things about the church I always try to remind them of the LRH tech and policy that is the genus of DM's batty actions.

    Nevertheless I have generally held the opinion that the abuses do seem to have got worse during DM's reign, despite Hubbard's overboarding, imprisonments, and his operations "Snow White" and "Freakout", etc.

    A few days ago I heard an account, which while minor, compared to many abusive practices then and now, was nevertheless quite shocking to me.

    Just after I had joined Scn in the late 60's, my sister visited the org to see me. She wasn't anti-scn and had actually been instrumental in helping me find out about the subject. She was pretty open-minded about it.

    She walked into the org and said she'd come to see her brother. Div 6 asked her to do a personality test, which she didn't mind doing then she asked to see me and they said the test just needed to be marked first. She was given an eval and told communication was her ruin. She asked to see me and the reg she had to sign up for the communication course first.

    She was heavy regged for several hours and told that before she could see me she had to show commitment to Scn and sign up for £200 worth of services - a lot of money back then. She was prevented from seeing me every time she asked.

    Eventually, in order to see me she compromised and agreed to think about it overnight and would let them know the next day and they finally agreed to let her see me because that was showing some degree of commitment.

    They let her see me and next day she phoned up the Org and said she wouldn't be doing the courses.

    To her great credit, she never told me about the duress she had been put under in order to see me. I was so enthusiastic about Scn, that she didn't want to deflate me! In fact she has only told me nearly forty years later!!!

    A minor story compared to many, but I found it quite shocking to think that Div 6 did such dirty tricks way back then and people who I thought were my friends would put a member of my family under such stress.

    If I heard such stories from these DM days, I wouldn't be surprised, but I am genuinely surprised that such a thing was done back then in a relatively outer org, far away from Ron's bully activities on the Flagship.

    So this has set me wondering again as the whether DM's church is more abusive and morally corrupt than Ron's church was.

    Anyone else got any then stories and now stories, so we can compare the two churches?

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    Squirrel Extraordinaire Dulloldfart's Avatar
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    I remember life in the SO was more FUN in the 70s than in the 80s and 90s. I don't mean it was more fun all the time, but the fun times seemed to happen more often then.

    Especially before the 2D Rules FO was issued.

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by asagai View Post

    Anyone else got any then stories and now stories, so we can compare the two churches?
    Well for one thing, I call neither a "church". That angle has only been invented and pushed for the obvious reasons.

    IMO nothing has changed, except the "show me the money" has become a whole lot worse.
    My Story - Becoming Free to Shine
    QUOTE OF THE YEAR: "I wasn't aware that a documentary (on scientology) was coming out but I'll be sure to not watch it." A Scientologist

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    Patron Meritorious Escalus's Avatar
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    I want to somewhat echo Fart... er... you know what I mean.

    For all the stupidity of it we did have fun with it in the 70s. In a college town when you told people you were a Scientologist, you might have found it easier to get laid. Now people will just hand you deodorant and a toothbrush...
    “…Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her crimes, known and unknown. And act completely confident that those crimes exist….” ~L. Ron Hubbard, “Critics of Scientology”, November 5, 1967

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    Crusader lkwdblds's Avatar
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    Default How true

    Quote Originally Posted by Dulloldfart View Post
    I remember life in the SO was more FUN in the 70s than in the 80s and 90s. I don't mean it was more fun all the time, but the fun times seemed to happen more often then.

    Especially before the 2D Rules FO was issued.

    Paul
    We had a saying in the CCLA of the early 70's that "if it wasn't fun, it wasn't Scientology." Another commonly quoted line, also promoted by Yvonne Jentzch was that "Seriousness equals Mass.". Also, "Scientology is the only game in the Universe where everyone wins."

    Another thing which I actually experienced in 1978 which is very tangible and very very different than the Church under DM is that I received L11 from auditor Alex Sibersky in 1977. I was satisfied with the level and thought Siberski was a great auditor. Nevertheless in 1978, I received a call from the registrar, David Light, telling me that Siberski had been declared suppressive and all his pc's were being called back to redo the services he delivered. The difference between 1978 and the DM regime? I was not charged for redoing L11 with a different auditor, the Flag Land Base comped me and delivered it for free!
    Lkwdblds

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    Sponsor Veda's Avatar
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    It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

    Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

    While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

    Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

    A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

    Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

    When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

    The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.
    Last edited by Veda; 23rd September 2009 at 10:38 AM. Reason: typos

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    Gold Meritorious Patron lionheart's Avatar
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    Excellent, accurate write-up, Veda!

    In those days one could lurk on the outer fringes at Missions and Orgs and sort of ignore the GO black ops that one heard of (we heard of them partly because we were on the fringes and more in touch with the "wog" world press and also because scientology tongues tended to loosen in the outer orgs and missions). We could also more safely ignore Hubbard's more vicious policies.

    If one found oneself being drawn in towards the crazy centre of Scn one could withdraw again to the calmer waters of the Missions. Personally I had observed that the closer you got to Ron the battier the ogranisational behaviour became.

    Some of us enhanced the "fun" side of scientology and it was genuinely exciting and wonderful. We believed, foolishly, that one day all of the scn world would be as much fun. How very wrong we were!
    "There is a Reality which is Indivisible, One, Alone, the Source and Being of all; not a thing, nor even a mind, but pure Spirit or clear Consciousness; and we are That and nothing but That, for That is our true Nature; and the only way to find It is to look steadily within, where are to be found utmost peace, unfading joy, and eternal life itself." (Douglas Harding)

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    Crusader lkwdblds's Avatar
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    Default Awesome post, fills in missing data!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

    Yes, Veda, oh so true. We had Rocky Stump, a Class XII make several speeches, I believe Sibersky, Class XII visited and spoke at ASHO and Ron Shafran (Shaffy), Class XII, became senior C/S at CCLA replacing a non Sea Org Class XIII named Don Keeler. The only guy who did not have the dedicated glare was Bob Harvey who came out to put in the ESTO system into PAC area orgs management structure. Bob had a spirit of play and a twinkle in his eye and made everything fun. After 3 weeks or so of doing his mission, he was removed without any explanation and I believe he was never heard from again.

    Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

    Yes, the Guardian's Office Rep showed up, the Flag Rep network was started, the LRH Comm network was started, the FBO network was already in place. The G.O. definitely had the most muscle but all the networks were extremely hostile to normal org staff, looking down on us as peons and all these networks were fighting each other for power to boss everyone around. At CCLA they were aware of each other more than just dimly. They all ate together at the exec dining table with Yvonne and the other Org execs. The Commanding Officer, Yvonne Jentzch, who founded CCLA in 1969 and ruled single handidly though around 1971 suddenly found about 5 Flag people permanently posted at her Org who outranked her. She became very upset by this.

    While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

    Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

    A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

    Yes, I was transfered to the Apollo in 1973 and was treated as a piece of garbage the moment I arrived at the airport in Lisbon. I was hated and reviled completely and totally during the short time I was there.

    Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

    That may be why I was given L11 over for free in 1978. Very interesting!

    When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

    The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.
    This last bit about LRH masterminding the looting and destruction of the Missions is generally not fully understood. It is somewhat new to me. If this is the way DM came to power, it explains almost everything as to why the C of S is the way it is today. Veda, your historical insights are extremely interesting and really appreciated. I hope you keep them coming!
    Lkwdblds

  9. #9
    NOT drinking the kool-aid LA SCN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

    Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

    While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

    Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

    A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

    Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

    When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

    The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.
    GREAT POST!!!
    LA (EX) SCN
    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson, 1784

  10. #10
    Silver Meritorious Patron Blue Spirit's Avatar
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    Default Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Veda View Post
    It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

    Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

    While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

    Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

    A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

    Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

    When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

    The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.
    Lots of reality above.

    Just think of the reasonableness exercised

    to stay on "The Only Road to Total Freedom" ?
    The actual route to be free and return all of your true spiritual operating abilities is a total positiveness and the ability to forgive all (you too) for everything done and accept each being as you find them. In granting full beingness to yourself and others you will have ability to stop resisting the negative, which in turn assures that your full beautiful powers and abilities will bear fruit.
    ____
    "There is one coward on Earth and that is the coward that dare not know." >W.E.B. DuBois

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