Getting People to Leave

[Alanzo]

I'll admit it.

When I first left the Church, I wanted everyone to leave with me.

I was trying to "expose the con" to as many people as I could. I wanted to create a mass exodus. I wanted to set them free.

It didn't work at all. People became even more entrenched.

Since then, I've come to see that we all practice self-delusion to some degree in our lives. We all cling to beliefs. At the beginning of my involvement, it would have been a step down to leave. After a while, however it was definitely a step up to get out because I had finally graduated.

So here are some questions to ponder:

1. Do you think it is ethical to try to get people to leave the Church of Scientology?

2. How should that best be approached?

[svonhatten]

1. Do you think it is ethical to try to get people to leave the Church of Scientology?

I'm a little mixed, but for the most part, yes. I think that it is ethical. Especially when they keep forking over their money to the CoS.

2. How should that best be approached?

Ask them questions. Like these:

http://askearth.com/go/view_request?request=107806
http://www.scientology-lies.com/questionsforscns.html
http://www.lermanet.com/scientology/...-questions.htm

-Steve

[Zinjifar]

So here are some questions to ponder:

1. Do you think it is ethical to try to get people to leave the Church of Scientology?

2. How should that best be approached?

Is it 'ethical'? As long as you're not talking 'Scientology Ethics'; sure

But it's also impractical and *very* dependent on how you do it.

1) The part of the 'Tech' that 'works' is the Mind Fuck, and yes, it's *designed* to reinforce itself at any sign of tampering.

2) The things that *might* work, such as forcible 'de-programming' are abhorent and usually illegal.

3) Under most circumstances direct 'attempts' to 'get people out' would be at the very least rude; almost always pointless; and always manipulative and socially objectionable. At the very least they give 'critics' a bad name, and, I'm glad that so few see that as their contribution.

From everything I've seen, Scientologists leave on their own timetable (almost all do,) for their own reasons (usually having to do with a 'Church' atrocity against them or theirs,) not because somebody 'got them out'.

The solution to Scientology is to prosecute the crimes committed in its name and the people committing those crimes.

Getting people 'out' is putting the cart before the horse; take the Cult away and it won't matter (much) who's 'still in'.

Zinj

[svonhatten]

Is it 'ethical'? As long as you're not talking 'Scientology Ethics'; sure

But it's also impractical and *very* dependent on how you do it.

1) The part of the 'Tech' that 'works' is the Mind Fuck, and yes, it's *designed* to reinforce itself at any sign of tampering.

2) The things that *might* work, such as forcible 'de-programming' are abhorent and usually illegal.

3) Under most circumstances direct 'attempts' to 'get people out' would be at the very least rude; almost always pointless; and always manipulative and socially objectionable. At the very least they give 'critics' a bad name, and, I'm glad that so few see that as their contribution.

From everything I've seen, Scientologists leave on their own timetable (almost all do,) for their own reasons (usually having to do with a 'Church' atrocity against them or theirs,) not because somebody 'got them out'.

The solution to Scientology is to prosecute the crimes committed in its name and the people committing those crimes.

Getting people 'out' is putting the cart before the horse; take the Cult away and it won't matter (much) who's 'still in'.

Zinj

That's true. I got really defensive a couple of times on ARS. I nearly left that forum thrice, but destiny kept bringing me back to it.

However, it took a long time to really realize what my Church was doing. I finally realized... why am I explaining this all away? I shouldn't have to justify it. It shouldn't even be an issue. Then things just started coming together. It's like I put on new eyes. WHAM!

-Steve

[The Oracle]

It is not necessary to spend your time to get others to leave the Church.

A person must have more pleasure than pain to survive.

People will not pay for pain or "can't have's".

The nerve of that business to force everyone to purchase more entertainment by introducing GAOT with threats is a bad enough indicator to suggest the Church is now selling pain, losses, humiliation, threats, and tricks, and punishment. They tax their followers now by convincing them what they already paid for wasn't worth a damn! The retrains on GAOT and putting the OT8s back on OT7!

Where do you suppose they will find consumers?

We right here right now are watching that place go out of business at a rapid rate.

You don't have to convince people to leave! They have blocked off the front door of the Fort Harrison so no one can get in!

They have punished the people that believed starting from the Sea Org right down to the streets.


David Miscavige has dedicated his entire life to unmocking Scientology and he has an army to assist him.

Sit back and grab a bag of popcorn.

People would rather keep their reactive minds than subscribe to the Church's abuses.

That is a pretty bad indicator!

DM pushed the envelope too far, he over estimated what he had to offer for sale.

Beyond that, the world outside of the Church has been in an evolution and has gotten better and better and better while the scene inside of the Church has become more and more brutal and less rewarding, even though the people improving the world have reactive minds.

Because the people outside are not living in a dream where nobody has a heart.

It is also becoming apparent that not everyone has a reactive mind.

The ones that do are not likely to have the money to pay to get rid of it.

So, someone has to be the turkey at Thanksgiving.

So what chance do you see of a future?

[Zinjifar]

People will not pay for pain or "can't have's".

People would rather keep their reactive minds than subscribe to the Church's abuses.

<snips>

First; you're wrong. People *will* pay for pain and 'can't haves' and humiliation and domination and all kinds of silly stuff.

They can; they do. It's a huge market segment. Some require a 'purpose' behind it, like the Sea Orgers; the saner ones just go for the gusto and hire somebody to beat and humiliate them.

Second; there *is* no 'reactive mind', until one is 'trained' to 'mock it up'.

The 'reactive mind' and 'case' and 'ruin' are the *rationalizations* for the 'Church' abuses, which is all it really has to offer.

Zinj

[Pooks]

I have a friend who is very successful in gettng people out of the C of S.

This friend is a highly Classed Scn Auditor and an "OT" so he has what is called "altitude" in Scn.

What this friend does is quite simple. He knows that what is most ingrained
in Scio's is the policy on KSW and that the idea of "squirreling" is absolutely
abhorent to them.

This person does not use the internet (at first) and has both the original LRH
books/tapes and the new GAT versions availabe.

My friend calmly shows each Scio the original LRH stuff and then the new
GAT stuff and has the person "cog" that squirreling is going on by Scn management.

Then he goes to the internet and shows the person the stats. The person is shown that the stats are in fact down and that Int Management is lying.

At this point the person is ready to start looking at the internet on his own
because they are pissed off.

My friend does not try to get them out of SCN at all. He tries to get them
out of the C of S first, and get them looking. Some of them will go to the freezone, others will leave altogether. But the idea is to just get them willing to look at what is going on and allowing them to find out more, at their own pace. He uses Scn words and "tech" to get them OUT. He's reported to me that almost one for one, when he does this, people leave.

This makes sense, knowing how indoctrinated Scios are, and how many thought stopping techniques are implanted in the Scn mindfuck, the only way to get them out, is to use Scn's own policies and ideas to show them the truth.

Patty P

[Alanzo]

Patty -

I think "gradients" apply just as strongly to getting out of Scientology as they do to getting in.

When I was a dedicated Churchie, many people told me things that were just too "out-gradient" and they never really registered with me. I even read whole books like "Messiah or Madman" and they just zoomed right over my head.

I think that was because I had not recognized any damage that Scientology had done to me, only improvement. I had a very strong personal interest in continuing in Scientology, and so anything that worked against that was definitely "suppressive".

It wasn't until I could become aware of real personal damage, and see that damage as coming from Scientology, that I was able to shore up the courage required to leave.

And it does take courage.

I remember the process began with that KSW mindset you mention. I had purchased an IAS annual membership at the $300 rate, and then in the middle of my membership, they changed the rate to $450 and canceled my 20% discount.

I said, "Wait a minute. You and I had an agreement that I would have a membership for one year at this rate, and I would get these discounts, and now you change the price so my discount is canceled?"

I queried all the way to ED Int.

Yes, was the answer.

That set me on a review of all membership policies, beginning with the HASI HCOPLs and then coming up through the IAS issues. I found rampant "squirreling" throughout. Needless to say, I was appalled.

When IAS reges came in and held us hostage after course, like they usually did, I would start to ask them about my problem. They knew nothing about it and said they didn't have anything to do with my problem.

I said, "Wait a minute. You come in here and want me to "take total responsibility" for Scientology internationally and then you say that something your own org is doing has nothing to do with you?"

Then I became more and more aware of the bullshit, and all the hypocrisy.

I started thinking about how my life would be without Scientology in it. Could I survive? I began to see that my life would be a lot simpler, with a lot less hassle and bullshit and people lording over me all the time.

Around the same time, I started reading books and websites about critical thinking. I had completed the Data Series course about a year earlier, and continued to be interested in studying more about logic. I began to see that the Data Series was truly kindergarten stuff, and it wasn't designed to help you really think for yourself at all, compare to real logic and critical thinking. Only when you can compare the two can you see that. One is for getting the stats up in a Scn org - which it is very good at - and the other is for learning the skills you need to think for yourself.

When regges started trying to get me to go even further in debt and declare bankruptcy, I began to become aware of the fact that I was getting fucked-with more and more. I think my awareness of being fucked-with was raising more and more. I had always been fucked-with. I just complied before and didn't notice that I was being fucked with.

I was on the BC and LRH had waited until then to tell me there was no God. I became aware that I had specifically asked, and had been told when I first joined, that Scientology does believe in God. I began to spot other things, too.

I told myself that since a lot of the information I had been given when I was first making my decisions to become a Scientologist had been found to be false, then I would undertake a full review of my participation in Scientology. I'll do a full doubt formula, I told myself.

I said to myself, "All right. If there is another side to this, then I deserve to be able to make up my own mind about it. After all, Scientology is the central fascination of my life. Why not read everything I can about it?" So then, I finally allowed myself to get on the Internet.

I found the location of "uplines" on the Internet and I drove out to the desert to see it for myself. As I drove by it, I thought, "I'm committing an overt by allowing myself to know about where the leaders of my church live." The irony..hypocrisy...idiocy... of the thought really struck home. I began to realize that there was so much I was involved in now as a Scientologist that I had NEVER signed up for.

Even at that time, though, I was sure that Miscavage was an SP and that he had squirreled my friend LRH's Scientology.

I think the loyalty to LRH is really the last to go. There are definitely earlier gradients that have to be traveled through before you can see the whole picture.

But, I think your friend is right.

The route out of the Church of Scientology begins with KSW.

[Emma]

Great posts Patty & Alanzo.

This is a fascinating topic.

[freet43]

I have a friend who is very successful in gettng people out of the C of S.

This friend is a highly Classed Scn Auditor and an "OT" so he has what is called "altitude" in Scn.

What this friend does is quite simple. He knows that what is most ingrained
in Scio's is the policy on KSW and that the idea of "squirreling" is absolutely
abhorent to them.

This person does not use the internet (at first) and has both the original LRH
books/tapes and the new GAT versions availabe.

My friend calmly shows each Scio the original LRH stuff and then the new
GAT stuff and has the person "cog" that squirreling is going on by Scn management.

Then he goes to the internet and shows the person the stats. The person is shown that the stats are in fact down and that Int Management is lying.

At this point the person is ready to start looking at the internet on his own
because they are pissed off.

My friend does not try to get them out of SCN at all. He tries to get them
out of the C of S first, and get them looking. Some of them will go to the freezone, others will leave altogether. But the idea is to just get them willing to look at what is going on and allowing them to find out more, at their own pace. He uses Scn words and "tech" to get them OUT. He's reported to me that almost one for one, when he does this, people leave.

This makes sense, knowing how indoctrinated Scios are, and how many thought stopping techniques are implanted in the Scn mindfuck, the only way to get them out, is to use Scn's own policies and ideas to show them the truth.

Patty P

Pooks.

I'd really like to get ahold of this person - could you ask him to email me or get me his contact info back channel?

Since I've been out for 28 years, and now recently getting into the FZ, what you write is so very real to me.

IMO, what this person is doing is exactly the correct action.

Beyond that, people can make up their own minds what they want to do, or not do.

Although I've seen numerous examples of the altered tech, getting more and more specifics would really be useful for some cycles I plan to work on soon.

It is specifically because of those pending cycles that I am not fully out yet on this board.

We can PM - if you have any concerns about who I am, as I believe we have a mutual friend or two that may vouch for me.

Thanks.