Getting People to Leave

[Alan]

When i knew LRH he could indeed be charming,i remember the students and auditors looking up to him in awe at times when he was talking about the tech.

I looked up to him when i was first on the ship,but for me the daily rituals of overboarding-orders that came from LRH,changed my opinion.

IMO no amount of 'Charming' can make up for the abuses that went on aboard Apollo back then or since.

Abuse is Abuse.The only good that come from it is to' Stop the Abuse'

If the CofS were to stop the abuse,then i for one would have no problem with
the 'Tech',even though the tech is not for me.

I'm not having a go at you Terril,just saying it as it is

Tamasin

You have to realize Terril, at that time these are "painful observations and unthinkable thoughts" we were having.

Much later, 1977 at Flag in Florida, I can remember many of my friends on the RPF, wearing black boiler suits in the hot sun and heavy humidity, sleeping in cardboard boxes in the parking lot.

One day I was in the FCCI lounge and a bunch of FCCIs were ridiculing some RPFers - the lounge was pretty full of people waiting for sessions - I got so pissed off - I stood up and attacked them all - called them fat useless slobs, berated them for their ridicule, etc., - naturally it came up in all their sessions

That was the end for me - I left Scio.

Alan

[Little Bear Victor]

You have to realize Terril, at that time these are "painful observations and unthinkable thoughts" we were having.

Much later, 1977 at Flag in Florida, I can remember many of my friends on the RPF, wearing black boiler suits in the hot sun and heavy humidity, sleeping in cardboard boxes in the parking lot.

One day I was in the FCCI lounge and a bunch of FCCIs were ridiculing some RPFers - the lounge was pretty full of people waiting for sessions - I got so pissed off - I stood up and attacked them all - called them fat useless slobs, berated them for their ridicule, etc., - naturally it came up in all their sessions

That was the end for me - I left Scio.

Alan

Alan, that's an interesting "last straw." Seeing for yourself that Scientologists are not really educated into supporting human rights and dignity, quite the contrary. It is one of the most disturbing aspects I saw in my stint in the RPF. If this is what the group that publicly claims to be all for human rights is really doing to people that disagree with them, them talking about "human rights" is just about the same level of fraud as Manuel Noriega being awarded for his fight against drug trafficking.

Victor

[Terril park]

You have to realize Terril, at that time these are "painful observations and unthinkable thoughts" we were having.

Much later, 1977 at Flag in Florida, I can remember many of my friends on the RPF, wearing black boiler suits in the hot sun and heavy humidity, sleeping in cardboard boxes in the parking lot.

One day I was in the FCCI lounge and a bunch of FCCIs were ridiculing some RPFers - the lounge was pretty full of people waiting for sessions - I got so pissed off - I stood up and attacked them all - called them fat useless slobs, berated them for their ridicule, etc., - naturally it came up in all their sessions

That was the end for me - I left Scio.

Alan

Understand. As a then young fairly athletic guy overboards would not be a problem. And I can swim. And with those factors in I could see it as a game.
But seems obvious not all saw it that way.

Invalidating others should rightly be corrected.

See my post on Victor's survey. Many overboardings would have been
preferable to this traumatic experience. For me. Diving, swimming no problem.

Being in effect cast out and rejected at that time was a complete suprise and far more traumatic. A spiritual overboarding.

[Björkist]

It is not necessary to spend your time to get others to leave the Church.

A person must have more pleasure than pain to survive.

People will not pay for pain or "can't have's".

Unless, of course, they are 2.0 or lower on the Tone Scale.

[Human Again]

My friend calmly shows each Scio the original LRH stuff and then the new
GAT stuff and has the person "cog" that squirreling is going on by Scn management.

Then he goes to the internet and shows the person the stats. Patty P

Hi Patty, do you know where to access this information?

AH

[Ladybird]

I found a letter I wrote to a friend back in 2005 when she was trying to get her daughter out of the Sea Org. I thought it would be a good idea to post it here and bump this great old thread that has lots of good advice for getting people out of the cult.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


To (Name redacted), I understand how frustrating it is to have your loved one visit you at home but still not know how to get them to see they don't have to go back to the cult.

Here is my advice, what worked for me in a few cases...

1.) Seeing my own name on an SP list was a big wake up call for me. Especially when nearly 1,000 other names were on that '93 list, many were my friends who simply "disappeared". That is the last list I have seen published, but if your RPFer has been in for a long time, earlier lists are available, and she might know alot of those people too. I did. Warriors site has lots of lists, as does Cerridwen and Kristi Wachter.

2.) Many "upstat" big money OT 8 publics have left Scn, such as Maria Pia Gardini, Michael Pattinson, Karl Heinz???, many others. Maria PG donated millions, and her story is heartbreaking. Bear in mind that all the income for INT is produced mainly by Booksales, FSO and the orgs, INT produces nothing but alot of orders and paperwork. Surely staff at INT know this and go into a big twit when they lose a big "moneymaker". Ask her what she thinks about these OT 8 defectors. Do a google search and save it so she doesn't have to wade through a bunch of crap. "Debbie Cook and Maria Pia Gardini" is a good place to start.

3.) You mentioned you saw her name on the RPF Insider list. Show her that list, everybody is interested in what others say about them. Show her things you read and tell her you don't believe it, but are concerned about if it is true or not. Ask her to take a look, just to put your mind at ease. If it is all a "pack of lies" as she's been told, what does she have to lose?

4.) I Personally got into trouble for refusing to "handle" some of my juniors who got pregnant to get them to have abortions. I don't care what your political or religious beliefs are, I think most would agree that abortion is never something your "religion" should force or coerce you to do. All long term SO, and especially executives, are very aware that this happens, especially at the INT level. Also, is your RPFer married? When did she last see her husband? How many of her friends or coworkers had their marriages or families broken up with forced divorces, separations or disconnections?

5.) Ask her if she remembers Roxanne Valle, the sister of young Richard Valle, current CJC (Continental Justice Chief, PAC.) Richard and Roxanne were raised in the Sea Org, and are functionally illiterate. Roxanne was fitnessboarded from the RPF and has no education and was known to be a nice kid, where is she now? Richard is being used by DM to declare and administer injustice to true believers trying to do the right thing. (KSW) There is NO justice in scientology, no matter all the nice PR.

5.) You can always ask about "body thetans". BTs are a big huge secret inside scientology. You can't believe the super high security, triple locked doors, threat of death gag orders against any OT staff ever talking about any of this. I would guess that 75 to 80% of staff are NOT even clear, let alone on the OT (BT) levels. One big plus for OT staff, they can blame their overts and witholds on BTs during their endless Sec checks, FPRD on 8 dynamics and not to mention any reads they get on the Truth Rundown.

Ask your RPFer if she thinks your arthritis or gout or whatever might be a "Body thetan".

If she is not clear or OT, be sure she sees the "EP" of OT 8, where you find out you mocked up your own reactive mind at Clear and all your own BTs up to OT7, and on OT 8 finally find out "Now know who I am not, and am ready to find out who I am." (Pretty much what normal teens figure out in college.)


6.) Does she know DMs case level? I don't. He doesn't allow anyone to audit him. Does she know he has an 8th grade education? Can she look at him in a "new unit of time" and truly say he is a great person with goodwill toward mankind? I can't. Just asking these questions will ensure that she will never be able to look at things the same way. Sometimes it takes years but once the chink is in there, the armour starts to break. Or "The Truman Show" gets exposed, as Tory very aptly describes it.

7.) Ask her about any physical problems she still has, such as asthma, menopause, obesity, etc. Is she lonely? Does she like the berthing, hygeine time and running up 6 floors to shower for 10 seconds? Does she get to brush her teeth properly? When is the last (or 1st) time she had a mammogram or a pap smear? Or seen a dentist? Does she have kids? When did she see them last? What grade are they in? How are their grades? Who are their friends? Or teachers? Has she seen other whole families on the RPF? (Like the generations of Espteins and the Eves family). How does she feel about the really old or really sick people who are dying in the Sea Org or the RPF? Did they "pull it in" by their own out ethics? What about the fact that FSO sent all their old and infirm and anyone else with physical problems to PAC after the Lisa McPherson Flap? Has she seen all those old OTs FESing down in the basement? I have.

OK, so now that she has been allowed to visit you, remember that this visit is to "handle" you and she has been given a "program" and drilled on what to say.

Get out the nice tablecloth and best dishes. Make all her favorite comfort foods. Light candles and use the best manners. Have all the photo albums tabbed to your best times. Hug and kiss her, RPF are not allowed to touch, and touch is a very basic human need. Don't push or force anything, and don't stop just because she doesn't reciprocate. Always play it by ear, don't get mad or think she owes you an apology, maybe she does, but it will take her awhile to figure that out. Always remember we are only here for a short time, and it is better to give than to receive. Just love her with all your heart, and know you are doing the right thing, and be patient if she doesn't fall into your arms right away.

Love, and especially unconditional love, is the most important basic thing we have to offer.

All the best,

"Ladybird"

[Sharone Stainforth]

I'm going to quote myself now, nothing quite like eating your own words.

When i knew LRH he could indeed be charming,i remember the students and auditors looking up to him in awe at times when he was talking about the tech.

I looked up to him when i was first on the ship,but for me the daily rituals of overboarding-orders that came from LRH,changed my opinion.

IMO no amount of 'Charming' can make up for the abuses that went on aboard Apollo back then or since.

Abuse is Abuse.The only good that come from it is to' Stop the Abuse'

If the CofS were to stop the abuse,then i for one would have no problem with
the 'Tech',even though the tech is not for me.

I'm not having a go at you Terril,just saying it as it is

Tamasin

Times do change and when I wrote that I was trying to be Mrs. Nice.

With regards the tech, I actually do believe the tech is extremely harmful. I think the tech and the policies on which scientology are run causes a great deal of harm.

One thing about being a child in scientology and seeing how things operated in the sea org, if you kept your mouth shut and didn't rock the boat, you were less likely to be punished.

Often in life, even outside of Scientology it is easier to keep one's mouth shut and go for happy harmony, but at what cost? What cost to one's integrity.

When you listen to enough people telling you it's great and I have a lot of wins on this, there are niggling doubts that maybe, just maybe you are wrong. Then you think about it some more, you see what the tech has done to people you know personally and you know without a doubt that, that is not so.

I'll be the first to admitt that I never had anything much to do with auditing and the e-meter, as I have said before I was scared stiff of the damned thing. Now I am going to sound just like a scientologist, because I know, from my Dad down to people I knew and have read about, from talking to people on the street that have been taken for a ride in the scientology ferris wheel that if the tech worked and made people into better and more able human beings then none of us would be here.

I will go one step further and say that not only do I think the tech is harmful, I think the whole damned belief structure is harmful. When you get people to believe in something so strongly that it twists and turns their minds to the extent that they will do anything to further that goal, then you have taken away freedom of thought.

If you believe in reincarnation, fare enough but to believe in it so strongly that people believe by committing suicide they will return, that is tantamount to coerced suicide.It might be singly and not enmass, but none the less that is what it is.

Life is not a game, at least not from my viewpoint, we can play games, but when some people are playing games with other peoples lives, then it ceases to be a game, if it ever was in the first place.

Games are for children, and unfortunately in scientology children are not allowed to play games, nor are they educated or allowed to be children.

Mrs Nice has left the building.

[Anonycat]

I wanted everyone to leave too, and many did. All these years later, I'm still doing it! For the greater good.

[Idle Morgue]

Tell them you have found something to do that is more economical and less time consuming: O.T.O. / Thelema

It is really powerful and your stats are soaring. Don't bad mouth Scientology. Don't mention the criminal activity these staff members have to do and witness others doing. It will not work.

Be smarter than HubTurd and Miss Cabbage. It is not too hard. They are really stupid due to the blood dripping from their cultie fingers! Suicides, death, ripping apart and smashing everyone's dynamics.

Also, very powerful questions:
1. What is spiritual freedom to you? If they say, CLEAR. Ask them of who they know are CLEAR, what do they think about that person? Same thing for Oatee's. Ask them how much money it costs to go CLEAR and OATEE?? They may line charge!

2. If Scientology is a path to spiritual freedom, who is God to you? Do we have a thrust to survive on the 8th dynamic? I have seen Oatee's drop their jaws, dazed and stunned, tell me they have to think about that one. Effective, powerful questions are the seed of doubt that will grow until they all LEAVE!!