20 questions about the religious cloaking of scientology.

Discussion in 'David Miscavige and Current Management' started by Free to shine, May 30, 2015.

View Users: View Users
  1. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Terrific article at the Underground Bunker that shows the complex legal religious cloaking in an understandable way. Well worth the read, especially the chart at the end.

    http://tonyortega.org/2015/05/29/20...to-the-center-of-a-dying-movement/#more-22894


     
  2. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    .
    .

    Does that mean that the Church of Scientology can claim tax exemption and on that basis can be deemed to be religious and therefore get away with crimes, but that the IAS is not part of the COS, and therefore should not be tax exempt?
     
  3. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    [​IMG]
    Scientology Inc. operative dressed as a minister, circa 1970s.


    The "Church of Scientology" is Scientology Inc.'s number one front group.

    Those asserting that Scientology is a genuine religious institution are forwarding Scientology's most empowering lie.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  4. lotus

    lotus autonomous rebellous

    So we all had gone through the same hallucination ???
    Amazing!

    We all signed a not existing SO billion years contract and went in a not existing SO compound and work in a non existing job as a non existing slave and some were put in a non existing rpf...thus many escaped a non-existing situation and few never signed a non-existing NDA... and the one who spoke never got non existing fair gamed neither non existing OSA ran after them to destroy their non existing existence...
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  5. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    It's very important that mainstream religions understand "Religious Cloaking" as the concept which Scientology has successfully used to shield itself from Civil and Criminal liability.
    It's equally important that the courts are no longer bamboozled, as so many have previously been.

    I wish that Leah Remini would allow Jon Atack and Gerry Armstrong to fully explain how Scientology performed this act of political and legal legerdemain, by exposing the smoke and mirrors and misdirection behind the illusion.
    I'd bet that Mike Rinder could also shed a lot of light on it, too.

    I gag every time Leah refers to it as a church.
     
  6. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Leah is probably not aware of Denise Brennan's legal Declaration or watched the video below as Denise was the person who did all of the $cio corporate shell restructuring/religious cloaking for Elcon & Slappy. I agree, it would be a fantastic topic for Leah to expound on exposing how the cult hides behind lies and legal trickery.

    [video=youtube;v1ShA47319c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1ShA47319c[/video]
    Denise Brennan and Steven Hassan

    Denise's legal declaration
    http://www.lermanet.com/reference/brennan-dec.pdf
     
  7. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    .


    She's learning and will figure out that part of the scamTech too...

    It's a tricky one, that question of whether Scientology is a religion or not. At one point I realized it's not a contradiction to say that there is a religious component to the practice of Scientology. Reasoned as follows:

    * Think of other pure scams like Joseph Smith and the LDS. A century after Smith hoodwinked gullible farmers/ranchers, the folks in Utah actually and really DO believe in all of those wild "revelations" Smith conjured up with his head in a dark hat, using a magical "seer" stone. So, even if his original intent was 100% to defraud them, THEY ARE believers--conferring religious status to the activity.

    * I see Scientology in the same way. It's a religion. But only the part that doesn't have a pricelist and cash register.

    * Ergo, any typical Scn org is both a religion AND a business. The physical premises are used for BOTH and the functions, staff, policies, administrative procedures and management are tightly woven together in a purposefully seamless fashion. ​

    If the religious part of any org was granted non-profit status and the business part was treated like any other business, there would be no problem. Because the business part of the org:

    --would have to pay real estate taxes

    --would have to pay minimum wages

    --would be constrained by all consumer protection regulations

    --would be subject to all Federal, State, payroll and other customary taxes.

    --would not have any "religious protections" and could be sued in civil court just like any other person or company. Likewise, there would be no cloaking that prevented criminal indictment and prosecution if they violated any laws or regulations. ​

    I know it sure doesn't seem right to even consider or grant the idea of allowing Scientology to call itself a "religion" or "church". But, I think they should be allowed to do it if they want because they'd soon be bankrupt from having to pay minimum wage, income tax, real estate taxes and from the massive wave of civil lawsuits that would descend upon them.

    That would be the identical death-by-lawsuit that their beloved founder diabolically plotted and perpetrated for all those decades vs. innocent victims. Now, wouldn't that be a lovely final karmic chapter to the cruel hoax known as Scientology?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  8. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Well I noticed she gagged herself in that long interview with Joe Rogan, she could almost not say the word "church". Good, it makes me gag too.
     
  9. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Cute idea, but too cute by half. It has no practical application in the real world.

    It does give Scientology what it wants the most - right up there with money and slaves - it gives them a critic saying, "Scientology is a religion."

    It even likens Scientology to Mormonism, something which Scientology PRs and lawyers have been doing for years.

    Scientology has already "been granted the idea to call itself a religion." It successfully blackmailed the IRS and deceived and intimidated judges and, last time I looked, it wasn't bankrupt.

    The follow up part of your notion doesn't happen.

    The battle Scientology is waging now is to convince the general "Wog" public that it's a religion. It's a PR and propaganda battle. The people Scientology seeks to influence are not necessarily known for long attention spans. These are the people who watch Super Bowl commercials and are genuinely swayed by them. These are the "bumper sticker" masses. They'll hear the first part of your message, but their eyes will glaze over before the second part can penetrate their personal atmospheric fog cloud.

    Nice try, though. :)
     
  10. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    You missed the point. It was not a proposed plan to help legally reorganize Scientology.

    It was to illustrate how Scientology could be given exactly what they so perversely covet (religious status) and still accelerate that miserable cult's self destruction.

    Don't worry, Veda, I am not trying to help Scientology. LOL. What you missed is that the battle vs. Scn does not have to be binary. They don't have to be stripped of religious status--the one thing they will use their billions of dollars and fight to the death to save. They can be defeated by ALLOWING them to keep it and simply separating out that part from the other 90%--the business part of Scientology that has pricelists and "Big League Closing Techniques".

    Don't think of it as 'giving in' to Scientology. Think of it like a 300 pound muscle bound freak charging at a 99 pound weakling trained in judo. You know, letting the bully's brute force work against them?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  11. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    I wonder how many of the whales would stick around if they could not write off their donations?
     
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    [​IMG]

    If that point involves the sharp edge of Scientology's religion angle, I guess I did miss it, and I intend to keep missing it - or having it miss me - as long as I can.

    Your idea is entertaining on a message board, but that's about it. It has zero practical application.

    The concern now is whether or not Scientology - through repetition - can imbed the "Scientology is a religion" meme in enough people's minds so that they will automatically shrink from criticizing it, for fear of being called "bigots," etc.
     
  13. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    ..

    Excellent point!

    And imagine, if all staff members had to be paid minimum wage (with the org having to cover payroll taxes and other employee benefits) toilet paper wouldn't be the only thing they couldn't afford. To wit, they wouldn't be able to afford keeping those lavishly expensive buildings open unless they virtually stopped selling courses and nearly profit-less auditing---turning their attention fully to the PURE DONATIONS business (Ideal Orgs, IAS, ABLE, et al).

    The inefficiency of how the business of Scientology orgs run is so staggeringly insolvent (without the non-profit status) no business in the world could survive bankruptcy. Imagine for a moment a HUGE LAVISHLY APPOINTED STORE that is empty of customers--but meanwhile, the store clerks are sitting alone, filling the time by endlessly writing letters to former customers. How freaking crazy is that? LOL
     
  14. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    Au contraire, sir. It is not as you've characterized it--entertaining but zero practical application. It is precisely the kind of out-of-the-box thinking that is missing from the world of Scientology critics.

    Why do you think that critics have been a frightful failure so far to wrest Scientology's cherished NON PROFIT STATUS from their death grip? It's because of binary thinking. The choice is not whether they MUST or MUST NOT have religious status. That is precisely why the effort to strip non-profit status has failed.

    By insisting that Scientology must NOT have 501c3 status is just engaging in an endless tug of war with a billion dollar legal war chest. It is designed to fail. The harder you try to pull Scientology's religious status away, the worse it gets.

    Think Chinese finger trap.


    [​IMG]





    Scientology could NOT be defeated by trying to pull away their non-profit status.

    Scientology could rather handily be defeated by convincing the IRS to LET THEM KEEP IT but separating out the business (money) part.

    Fixating on trying to take away a religious status is pointless. It doesn't get any result. That's why if a wild gorilla escapes from its cage at the zoo, they don't try to wrestle it and "force it" to the ground. They just shoot it with a tranquilizer gun.
     
  15. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    ..

    While we are all discussing Scientology's religious cloaking, let me remind all of the 5000 pound elephant in the room.

    Scientology's "trick" is that they covered up that they are SELLING services/products, exactly the same way any business sells them.

    Inside every org in the world are registrars trained in selling techniques and "big league closing techniques". They have endless price lists and bulk discounts.

    IT COULD NOT BE MORE OBVIOUS THAT THEY ARE SELLING THINGS! WHICH MAKES THEM A BUSINESS.

    That's what the IRS failed to recognize and act upon.

    That's all that is required to fix it. Scientology can keep it's religious status for the part that is religious. But not for the part that SELLS things.

    It's not actually more complicated than that.
     
  16. Elronius of Marcabia

    Elronius of Marcabia Silver Meritorious Patron

    Very good HH:thumbsup:

    The point is for Scientology to have this battle going on at a certain level of cost say 10% of gross income
    and leaving 90% safe and sound in the clutches of Miscaviage and Co.

    Cost of doing bussiness nothing more nothing less,magic act, smoke and mirrors, watch the left hand
    distraction while the right hand does all the rest.

    A very profitable non profit organisation IMO:eyeroll:
     
  17. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Whatever you say, oh wise HH. From your lofty perch, lead us out of the land of binary thinking.

    [​IMG]
    Navel gazing taken to an entirely new level.



    Let us know when the first court challenge based on your premise gets under way.
     
  18. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    I like it. :yes:
     
  19. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    Non-sequitur.

    We are discussing IDEAS that might effectively reduce or eliminate the cult's religious cloaking protections.

    Sure, one could take the absolutist (binary) approach that the ONLY way to solve it is to strip the COS of 100% of it's non-profit status.

    But, I am discussing possible strategies that could ultimately de-fang the viper without necessarily having to kill it dead, dead, dead.

    Let's say this was mid World War II and this message board was discussing how to defeat the Axis powers and their world-domination crusade. There would be MULTIPLE ideas and prospective strategies floating around. Mid-war, it was very dangerous indeed and the Allies could easily have lost the war!

    So, ONE of the possible end-games that would have been floated by someone is to invade the mainland of Europe and march forth toward Berlin, skirmish by skirmish, battle by battle, a plodding meter at a time. (Note: That one ended up being the Normandy invasion)

    ANOTHER strategy being discussed would have been the carpet bombing of Japan and Germany to knock out the war manufacturing industry and to destroy public morale. (Note: During WWII, branches other than the Air Force fought bitterly against the idea that air warfare could ever defeat the Axis)

    ANOTHER strategy--to develop the capability of incendiary bombs that would feed upon itself and ultimately engulf entire cities in flames. (Note: that campaign failed badly but innovative thinkers figured out how to keep the blazes going until the winds picked up and created a mass conflagration)

    ANOTHER STRATEGY being tossed about--to try to develop a super-secret-all-powerful-mega-weapon. That (after years) ultimately resulted in the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan that ended that part of the war within days.

    The point here is that strategies are explored, researched and discussed long before they can be enacted.

    The fact that I am not in a court room does not negate or, in the least, discount the potential value of various hypotheses being floated and offered for discussion.

    You want to make the concept I am offering disappear by turning it into a derisive argument that I am pretending to be smart or that I haven't argued it before the Supreme Court? LOL

    It's a discussion. It's not threatening. Even the idea of allowing the COS to keep their precious non-profit status, while simultaneously EXPOSING and ATTACKING the benefits that they get from it. That seems like a perfectly sensible thing to discuss, especially since the tried-and-true theories of how to DISALLOW the already-granted non-profit status has never gained any traction. And it shows no sign of doing anything other than provoking a billion-dollar litigation machine (COS) to defend itself using its strengths.

    The point here is to force the COS to fight in a manner where it is clearly WEAK. The fact that it is operating a business, cleverly hidden within the layers of a non-profit.

    What difference does it make if the COS keeps its non-profit status, as long as they are prevented from cloaking the business transactions?

    Again, this is just a discussion. You don't need to continue the non-productive ad hom and non-sequiturs. Feel free to use reason instead.
     
  20. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron


    At the risk of bringing about the introduction of pay toilets in orgs...the only part of Scientology that doesn't yet have a price list and cash register, AFAIK, are the bathrooms.
    Pre-Miscavige Scientology operated, as you will recall on "fixed donations" - which, in plain English is a price list.
    The word "donations" was used as a form of religious cloaking; real religions rely upon donations - only a religiously cloaked cult with tremendous chutzpah would use such an obviously contradictory term as "fixed donation."
    Unless I'm mistaken, it's the religious designation that exempts Scientology from the FLSA (minimum wage) along with disability, unemployment, and health insurance contributions that are mandated by current US law.
    In fact, the ersatz "Church" of Scientology, according to a lawsuit filed by the Sklars, receives tax advantages that far exceed those given to Jewish and Christian groups - courtesy of Fred Goldberg, former IRS Commissioner and the secret IRS agreement.
    I don't know enough about the LDS church to comment intelligently. I do know that the Nation of Islam whose essential religious doctrine is submission to Allah and which teaches that Whites, and especially Jews are responsible for Black disempowerment is also recognized as a 501C-3 group.The murderous activities of NOI members, which, if traced back to the NOI, would likely disqualify them from favorable tax treatment. But the closest we ever came to an admission of guilt was when Farrakhan directly threatened Milton Coleman, then a Washington Post reporter with death.
    Likewise, the KKK White Christian doctrine, odious as it is, would fall under the protection of the establishment clause, which by necessity is non-judgmental, but the KKK's activities (lynching, assassination, terrorism) are directly actionable.
    IANAL.
    I know that Ray Jeffrey was very able to puncture Scientology's phony "ecclesiastical defense" in the Monique Rathbun case, by focusing on the acts committed by the defendants under the direction of the "church". What an utter shame it was that the Rathbuns did a 180 degree reversal...Judge Waldrip certainly had no problem viewing
    them as a commercial entity.
    Finally, I have no quarrel with Scientology calling itself a religion. When I was conducting phony Sunday Services in NY, as the Chaplain, reading the Creed of the Church about everything they say they believe, but do not... I convinced myself that it was a religion, and I was part of a religion. But I was very wrong. I was a cog in their religious cloaking program, a cynical well organized program to game the system.

    To my mind, calling Scientology a religion is the moral equivalent of calling child pornography...art.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017

Share This Page