After 20 years of hiatus my father rejoined the cult, i need to convince him to quit for good

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by NamiJ, Jun 12, 2018 at 10:37 AM.

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  1. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Live From The Axis of Exes

    What a great and insightful interview with such an interesting and cool lady!
     
  2. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Live From The Axis of Exes

    Watching this interview made me realize that in all the drills the cult devises for you, not one drill is about creating the ability to just say NO when you are being harassed, regged. robbed or manipulated. It just shocks me that this woman could not just say no, instead she descends into guilt, figure figure psychological collapse etc. Wow! Glad I've always been able to say no, fuck you FUCK NO!!!!
    I think that her FSM Karen Staples is the wife of a construction worker I knew on lines, Mike Staples up in Minnesota from TC Morgue. She's the one Maria mentions as using her FSM commission to buy a condo.
     
  3. Bill

    Bill Silver Meritorious Patron

    (Ahem!) I created some "Scientology" drills to say "no" --> A Scientologist’s Golden Age of Integrity Drills :D
    :giggle::thumbsup:
     
  4. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    "No", that drill is reserved for Church finance personnel like Treasury Secretaries and Flag banking Officers. Saying "No" to a mirror. We discussed it here:

    https://www.forum.exscn.net/threads...ee-what-it-was-like.44319/page-3#post-1152541

    The concept is that these people would drill and develop the skill to deny requests from the respective org's Financial Planning Committee regardless of the merits or sincerity of their pleas for things that they couldn't afford in the FBO's opinion, were off-policy, not conforming to LRH's priorities (read: skimming), etc. If it means not spending 10% on promo and all the other mandatory expenses then "No". The FBO's were subordinate to the GO for a long time and the GO's priority was to finance black ops and all the legal cases resulting from Hubbard's spy vs spy valence. So the FBOs were basically pawns having to relay other people's "No".

    I did the "No Drill". I think what people need to understand is that FBO's don't like depriving the staff. They would very much like to be able to say "Yes", but they have no choice. It is one of the most highly regulated posts in the organization because it is the valve that let's money stay in the org or siphons it off. FBO's are not permitted to have a heart. Say "No" or be replaced. This robotic attitude toward money pervades Scientology all the way up and all the way down. The Div 6 hottie body routing you to watch a video, take a Stress Test, do the Personality Test and the Reg who then sells you your first book or course have this attitude in reverse. They can't let you say "No" to spending money. They are drilled to make you say "Yes". Everyone is drilled to make the money flow from you to Scientology. Having a heart in Scientology is called "being reasonable" and Scientologists know that being reasonable derives from "out-ethics". Therefore, to let someone not give them money is a red flag that they have deep transgressions and doubts that must be weeded out with sec-checks, lower condition amend projects and a myriad other creative deprivations and punishments.
     
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  5. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Live From The Axis of Exes

    This is one of the most important posts that all former public, staff too, should be made VERY aware of. I had no idea that this was being drilled. No wonder high level staff were impossible for me to deal with as we would both be saying NO till the cows came home, but I would invariably leave long before and only return once I'd forgotten about the confrontation to the extent that I could somewhat comfortably return to the org without throwing a shit fit. Might be a good idea to have set hyperlinks on the Home page to bring newbies to pages like this to help expedite the flow of key information that might make a difference in getting them to land on their feet on this side of the fence. The Bill Franks interview as well.
     
  6. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Nice drills! :yes:

    But in response to those policy references you'd show the reg, she would use the Hubbard Law of Commotion to pull out other LRH writings to back her up in achieving what truly IS the senior purpose, extracting the maximum amount of money out of the person in front of them.

    If that didn't work than one can send the prospect to Qual for word-clearing, Ethics for handlings, and get Sec Checks ordered if necessary.

    Hubbard Law of Commotion:
    *In Scientology, for each and every policy and piece of tech--there is an equal and opposite policy and piece of tech"
     
  7. vumba

    vumba Patron with Honors

    Good reply!
     
  8. exseaorgclocmoflagetc

    exseaorgclocmoflagetc Patron with Honors

    Im not sure which video of Maria Pia Gardini's it was , but at one point she talks about one time in Monaco and the monte carlo(?) gambling tables she ran into miscabbage and all of his buddies(SO management) gambling and drinking like regulars, she said hello and they were shocked to see her and explained it away asking her never to mention it. Thats just one more wrong place the public's donations go to.
     
  9. renegade

    renegade Silver Meritorious Patron

    Make sure your dad does not join staff. That would be worse than donating money for services or buildings.

    If he does, they will get all his cash somehow, he will work for free and they won't let him leave staff.
     
  10. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    And really they don't have to "get his cash" to strip his assets. Lots of people join staff or the Sea Org with reserves, a flow of income or other assets. To the extent that you are not being fairly compensated for your contributions of time and labor your assets are being stripped. Staff use reserves to augment their standard of living. Eventually they will spend it down to nothing, or when they need it for something unexpected or to start all over after they leave, the opportunity cost of not earning what they could have will leave them financially strapped.

    Young people joining the Sea Org are oblivious of the importance they play in their families. By pillaging the most productive years of a young member of a family the larger family is denied the accrued benefits of that members contributions over the course of a lifetime. The net effect of a family expending resources to help a staff member not only can deny accumulated wealth but put a negative cash flow and negative health burden on the family. When the usefulness of that staff member is finally spent and they leave staff all that potential good will and assets that could have been built up by a unified family won't be there. That potential has been transferred to Scientology. Another way to look at this as a transfer is what the Church would have to pay if they were paying for the same thing in fair market value. That has real world monetary worth. For sake of discussion: If you figure that the average wage per the SSA in the US in 2016 was 48,642.15 multiplied by 1000 staff members that's $48,642,140.00 per 1000 employees annually. At $50. a week (and they are often paid less) that would be $2,600,000.00 per 1000 annually plus room, board and medical, which I think we can agree are minimal at best. It has been estimated that they have about 4000 Sea Org members. $48,642,140.00 - $2,600,000.00 = $46,042,140.00 x 4 = $184,168,560.00 annual transfer of benefit to Scientology.

    My main point is money, assets and resources are not something that can be tracked and valuated like a business ledger. It is extremely abstract and if people understood and appreciated the abstract and unseen ways Scientology asset strips them and their families they would never join staff.
     
  11. Bill

    Bill Silver Meritorious Patron

    But, seriously, back when I was in Scientology, I used those same policy quotes successfully against Flag reges. They did not (at that time) have any way to respond. Don't know about today.
     
  12. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    That's great that that worked for you. I'm surprised that they would respect that even though you showed them LRH policy on it. I've heard other stories where that wasn't the case.

    I had my own situation, not with a reg but with some CMO Missionaires where I attempted to handle them by giving LRH references.

    When I was in Clearwater back around 1988 I was working in the SMI INT Expansion Office and one day a CMO missionaire came in as part of a Gold Man-up Mission, tried to rip me out of that office, saying I was "underutilized". I absolutely refused to go. I did a legal Query of the Order as per policy, giving some great LRH references on why it was a bad idea and they couldn't give a rats ass. They were demanding I go with them immediately, even before I received any response to my query.

    I spoke to one of the other guys in my office who used to be the CO CMO EU, asking his advice. He said something to the effect that he's seen similar situations in the past, and often, "whoever has the body wins". So I came up with a bright idea. I disappeared for some days. :D
    I phoned Jeanne Discher who I knew from Boston Org as she was now holding the post of either CO SMI INT or Fields Exec Int (Exec Strata) and she did all she could to try to help me. She told me to go to a printer or fax and 30 minutes later I had an order from WDC SMI that should have blocked my leaving the SMI network without WDC approval. But the Gold Man-up Mission still didn't care.

    Anyways, shortly after this I ended up on the RPF, and after some months realized I didn't want to be in the Sea Org any longer. Several weeks later I was routed from the RPF to HCO Security and handed my SP Declare order. :happydance:

    It was very difficult at the time, being tossed out with no money, disconnected from friends, no place to stay so I could request a Comm Ev. But looking back now I can see that that's truly the best thing they ever did for me during my entire time in Scientology. It put me on a real path to "total freedom". Freedom from the criminal cult anyhow.
     
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  13. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    I used the Code of Honor against them. That stopped them cold when I was being cornered.
     
  14. screamer2

    screamer2 Patron with Honors

    Any 'church' that uses 'drills' to 'handle' opposition is a 'church' to be avoided.

    Use 'the tech' against the cult. It works as long as it's confined strictly to the cult domain.
     
  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    What a great classic Scientology story!

    For our readers, you have to understand that all Scientology employees are constantly taking courses to perfect their understanding of the OEC Volumes. (Organizational Executive Course). This is a set of books that comprise the bible of Scientology organizational policy aka Management Technology. But LRH created other bodies of policy known as Flag Orders, Base Orders and R Advices. LRH told us in policy that there is no such think in Scientology as a “Hidden Data Line”. In other words, he is being up front and open with all Scientologists regardless of who or what they are and everything is knowable and “if it isn’t written it isn’t true”. In Scientology VD mean “Verbal Data”. This is a very bad thing because VD invariably ends up in misapplication of Hubbard’s written word.

    Screen Shot 2018-06-14 at 10.44.53 AM.jpg

    But non-Sea Org staff do not have access to Flag and Base Orders or OODs (Orders of the Day). Those are a few of the many Sea Org issues that are restricted to SO only. And within the SO many issues have very limited and confidential distribution which are not available to other SO crew unless they are read in. SO crew don’t see the R Advices governing OSA and the hundreds of Special Projects and Missions that Hubbard created. But these are archived and still used as reference by DM and senior management. As Messenger on Duty for LRH, DM would have grown up handling these R Advices in real time as they were issued.

    There is one overriding policy called “Command Intention”. In other words, whatever LRH wants trumps everything else including whatever he said or wrote before. So whoever has the authority to interpret Command Intention becomes the policy at the moment. After the CMO took over administrative control of the whole organization, in the real world policy became what the CMO wanted but the CMO is a big organization within itself and there are competing interests within the CMO so policy becomes which faction of the CMO trumps the other. This is the reality of internal Scientology politics. The sooner you learn how to navigate this minefield and realize that the Green Vols are for suckers, the better off you will be. If you don’t have a heavy hitter in the CMO to get your back then you are trying to survive in a snake pit of conflicting policy. One of the first things I did after starting to read up on the internet was to google the CMO Messengers that I knew and respected and they were all out living happy successful lives. I have to believe that the only people in the CMO now must be out of their minds and it will be these people who interpret the day to day policy that everyone else must live by.

    If the CMO wants you for another post then you absolutely by definition will be under utilized in the post you are in. Fight that and you set up an internal power struggle within the CMO and somebody has to pay. LRH railed against “staff ripoffs” and illegal transfers, staff musical chairs but from my experience it was always the status quo. We all knew that policy but it only really applied at the most lower echelons of the organization like a kind of mental salve. The Flag Bureau and it’s satellite offices, or FOLOs (Flag Operations Liaison Office) and CLOs (Continental Liaison Office) were the worst offenders ripping staff off from service orgs and using lower grade people (coins) to trade. The lower level orgs constantly struggled with being destabilized like this and the public suffered by being serviced by orgs that were constantly afflicted with dysfunctionality. It took the CMO to keep this in check but they were still the ultimate force in staff ripoffs.

    Lots of staff think that getting targeted for one of these transfers is a good thing. Often they would be approached without the org’s knowledge. It must be better higher up the org board, right? Wrong! There is good reason so many of those CMO execs aren’t there any more. Indeed, this is one of the best things about Scientology in that the constant staff ripoffs ultimately result in people waking up and getting the hell out of there. They realize it is the organization itself that is working against you and nothing about that will ever change.

    Which brings us to this policy “Using Policy to Stop”. It is the club to the Command Intention policy. If you use policy to argue reason against the Commodore’s emissaries then by virtue of that alone you are using policy to stop. It’s a lose lose proposition.

    http://www.scientology-cult.com/knowledge-center/lrh-references/138-using-policy-to-stop.html

    “So it doesn’t always work that the message goes through straight, but it is the answer, it is the answer. If you have hatted according to policy and not hatted off a lot of squirrel, offbeat actions; if you have made sure that you don’t have using policy to stop; they can do that by the way by always applying the wrong policy letter. All you’ve got to do is take the policy letter that applies to A and instead of following that, find another one that really doesn’t really apply to A but find something in it that can be construed as to apply to this and they say, “Well, you see we can’t do that.” Policy was designed to tell people things they could do and when it tells them not to do something, it’s trying to put edges on the channel so they won’t go off of it. But what channel? The channel of doing something right. When you say this is a high crime PL it means we’ve had enough of it, it’s been too prevalent, this why is big enough and prevalent enough and has been in the past to become a policy why, so don’t. But that doesn’t stop anybody from going down the main channel.
    “Now, if a fellow doesn’t know the policy that gives him the main channel and only knows the policy that tells him to stop, then you will get people using policy to stop. Do you follow? There is always policy that tells them how to go on the channel. If they only specialize in stop, that’s terrible. Well, there’s one thing that you must know that any group of thetans can get best agreement on a stop, they will most readily agree on a stop, that’s any group of thetans. It’s one of the reasons democracies don’t work. That’s what you know as group think. That’s a very funny one and that’s how they all get sort of frozen. If you’re not able to put in the public lines and if you can’t get a student into and out of an org, you know then that you have a group think and it’s a stop think. They don’t know the ways to do things and they’ve only agreed on the ways to stop things. So you want to get a lot of do policies going right away. You’ll see that, you’ve seen it in the past, you can’t fire somebody, can’t finish the guy up on his course, he always gets recircled in some way and so forth. It’s just an unhattedness, the guys don’t know the purpose of the thing. “


    – L. Ron Hubbard, Esto Tapes: F/Ning Staff Members (Part 1)
    Tape #: 7203C06, 6 March 1972

    “But how about the situation of this junior who stands up and says, “I can’t do it. It’s against policy,” or “I won’t use that verbal tech as it’s contrary to HCOBs”? In his timid way, he could feel this was very adventurous. He could get personally harassed. The first thing he might hear is, “You are using policy to stop!” Well, if the order he is receiving is off-policy or out-tech, he very well better stop it! Otherwise, sooner or later, his own neck and those of the group will be in the noose from the pure pressure of the give and take of life.”

    – L. Ron Hubbard, HCO PL 13 Jan 79 – Orders, Illegal and Cross
    OEC Volume 0 – Page 538
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018 at 7:52 PM
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  16. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Often, you being transferred wouldn't even involve YOU going up the org board, It might be that the CMO wanted "Joe" for something, but just ripping Joe out would cause his area to collapse, so they would rip "Sam" from someplace, have Sam replace Joe, thus allowing them to grab Joe for uplines. Naturally, this would create chaos in both Sam and Joe's old post.
     
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  17. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Correct. By causing instability it makes staff musical chairs easier. A strong willed Executive Director/Commanding Officer, or HAS (Hubbard Area Secretary) over the Church's version of Human Resources Department, would push back, speak truth to power and fight for their org and follow co-workers but they don't last. After half a century of this I have to imagine that it's a free for all now.

    They probably don't even bother with the customary Board of Investigation that finds the SP in the org that caused it to collapse and once again banning staff musical chairs...until the next round.
     
  18. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Pretty gross i'd say
     

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