Big story about Marty Rathbun in THE INDEPENDANT

Discussion in 'MartyWorld' started by randomx, Apr 7, 2012.

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  1. randomx

    randomx Patron with Honors

  2. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Patron

    Seems an OSAbot was posting here...surprise, surprise:

    So, I pointed out that for a person who knew no Scientologist, they sure knew the names of the current crop of "Most Hated Heretics" and those currently suing the cult.

    Other folk commenting that were not conversant with Scientology said things like "Oh, I thought with 'Science' in the title, it was more science than faith. So, it's just another bunch of people saying 'believe us!', eh?"

    Maybe it's one of Marty's flock. Maybe a twisted OSA post. Maybe someone that's followed the various movements and/or forums over the years. But it's certainly someone who is conversant with Scientology. So, the post may be from a bot of some sort.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  3. Sock Puppy

    Sock Puppy Patron with Honors

  4. Freeminds

    Freeminds Bitter defrocked apostate

    Ah, yes... the old "I am not a Scientologist but" tech.

    It was implausible then; it's laughable now. And they'll still be trotting it out for as long as there are still a few Scientology victims to post the messages.

    BTW, the article in the Independent contains a factual error. It describes David Miscavige as "charismatic".
     
  5. Infinite

    Infinite Crusader

    Brandy infused musings . . .

    ..

    Oh dear.

    Another acceptable truth for the wogs. Well, either that or Marty doesn't understand the fundamentals as expressed in the Axioms.

    I don't think anyone here hates Marty. I know I don't, but, fuck, he can be frustrating. He acknowledges that L Ron Hubbard was a liar, but calls it "story telling" and describes it as something of a technique for explaing brand-new difficult to understand spiritual truths. He rails against the abuses of the cult but defends the mechanism which permits it to occur. He, quite rightly, attacks David Miscavige but fails to extend the same understanding he wants extended to him in regard to how his actions are the result of having been boiled like a frog. And then there's Marty the individual. I was surprised and pleased to read some time ago that he's a bit of a greenie in that he presents as au fait with anthropomorphic climate change. I actually felt a spark of affinity for the guy. And then there's this, also from the Independent:

    Marty has socialist ideals?? Really?? Marty?? Am I going to have to lodge another point of agreement between him and I that socialism presents valid political options? I'd like to . . . but I just don't know if he understands what socialism is or whether he's telling the truth or not.
     
  6. RolandRB

    RolandRB Rest in Peace

    Re: Brandy infused musings . . .

    But now I am here and I say that I do. I hate that piece of shit. I hate the way he tries to blame Miscavige for everything but never himself. I hate the way he could close down the whole movement and put Miscavige in jail but knows he would be exposed for his own crimes. I hate the way he does not come clean on the McPherson death and even got rid of evidence. I hate the way he has not a drop of remorse for this. I hate that cunt and I hope he dies a painful death. :angry:
     
  7. Infinite

    Infinite Crusader

    Re: Brandy infused musings . . .

    Fair nuff, and thanks. Can I ask - do you hate Marty or do you hate what he does? Perhaps I'm seeking a differentiation where none exists but I'm seeking to apply my current theory consistently.

    Specifically, my theory is that Scientology takes good people and turns them into evil doers. The glaring hole in my theory is that not all good people are drawn to Scientology. There's the likes of Grant Cardone who is bad to start with and sees Scientology for what it is - a steady supply of already confused people waiting to be exploited. But the Grant Cardones appear to be the exceptions which prove the rule. In Marty's case, he does seem to be a genuinely good person who has been turned into an evil doer. His family circumstances prior to entry into the cult provided "great" ruins. Couple that with a tendency towards a social approach to life, his early experience with someone's brains splattered over him after a shooting, and, BINGO: a person with an atomised psyche perfect for reconstruction into a Scientology drone.

    Dunno why I've gone soft on the guy. He doesn't deserve and certainly wouldn't appreciate any empathy. Just thinking out loud, really.
     
  8. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Brandy infused musings . . .

    He does not acknowledge that Hubbard was a liar.

    He asserts that Hubbard was misunderstood.

    And that's the same PR line that's been used by Scientology since Scientology began.
     
  9. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Patron

    My take on Marty is he's a bloody mess, and not able to see morally in present time. Period.

    Why? What precursors cause this thick as a brick-ness are not as germane as his actions and intent.

    Martahy's actions are not shining sunshine anywhere for great justice. And his intent is wildly suspect. JMHO, guise.

    IF...If Marty was as honest and as forthcoming as 98 percent of the exes here, one deposition from him to the appropriate federal law enforcement agency (along with corroborative testimony from Rinder) might just be enough to tear the wall of lies away from the CoS and bring it and David Miscavige to justice.

     
  10. RolandRB

    RolandRB Rest in Peace

    Re: Brandy infused musings . . .

    I hate Marty as a person plus what he does. He has important information on the cult that could close it down and stop the ruination of lives and the odd killing but he would rather save his own skin. There is not a drop of responsibility or remorse in that pile of shit for a human being. The same goes for that scumbag Rinder. And I do not see how the "Indies" are so stupid as to support him. He is basically saying that all the tricky stuff in Scientology is allegorical and that hubbard for the RPF or what have you was not being literal which is totally against the axioms of Scientology and yet the Indies applaud it. So why are they going Clear if there was no R6 incident and why are they doing their OT levels? How can these people be so stupid and follow such as devisive liar even while listening to language that demolishes their belief structure?

    Marty is a hateful, scheming liar convincing a bunch of cretinous morons of his good intentions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  11. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Patron

    I feel ya, Roland.

    The testimony that Marty and Mike could provide, across a huge corporate conspiracy of crime covering decades of death, deceit, and damn near a billion dollars would almost assure those two of immunity.

    No excuse for their silence. Marty could preach the Gosh-pull of Hubbard all he wants...AFTER he and Mike publicly wash the blood and treasure from their hands, and indict David Miscavage for high crimes.

    In information security work, we say (like law enforcement) "Follow the money." I cannot help but wonder if money has changed betwixt bloody hands, and will continue to change hands here. Professional cynicism, yes...but there it is.
     
  12. Freeminds

    Freeminds Bitter defrocked apostate

    I think it's a mistake to assume that
    Independent Scientology = Marty​
    or
    Marty = Independent Scientology​

    Marty provides a useful halfway house for some people who are struggling to get out from under the cult indoctrination; others manage just fine without him. I do believe that Marty contributes to the recovery of Scientology victims. Once you accept the notion of picking and choosing which pieces of LRH's writings you accept as true, the whole web of lies tends to unravel pretty quickly. As such, Marty and I are on the same side...

    I just don't believe that Marty is a particularly significant player. So Marty has "provided a temporary home to 72 defectors", according to the article? Presumably since 2009. Call that a period of three years. That's two people a month.

    Now, two people a month, rescued from the madness that is modern CofS is better than nothing... but there may be as many as 350 people a month ceasing to consider themselves Scientologists, in the USA alone. (This figure based on the shrinkage shown between the two most recent ARIS surveys.)

    Marty's only got an ordinary house. He can't offer food and lodging to 350 people a month... nor does he have branches in lots of cities. So who does he invite to join him at his 'shack'?
    • People who are notable, representing a significant coup for him?
    • People who still have the ability to make significant donations?
    Marty is not a humanitarian. (For one thing, as a Hubbardite he apparently thinks he's no longer human, but 'homo novis'. Also, being generous would be "out exchange".) Marty has an agenda. He has a difficult game to play, given the pile of cash that the other side are sitting on... but it is a game, and he makes use of any playing piece that he can bring under his influence. For him, it's the only game in town.

    My guess is that Marty will someday accept a big chunk of 'hush money' from CofS. And why not? Everybody needs a retirement plan, and that may well be his. I don't think Marty truly believes in L Ron Hubbard any more than L Ron Hubbard did, and that's fine by me. Anything else would be lunacy.

    The question of independence is debatable, since both Marty and the Squirrel Busters seem to define themselves in terms of opposition to the other, rather than offering any useful or practical application of the Tech. Instead, both sides just worked really hard to give Scientology negative connotations. To a 'wog' who knows little of Scientology, and doesn't particularly care to take sides in a schism, the natural response is: "A plague on both your houses!"
     
  13. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Patron

    So, if Marty has the only true kool-aide, why doesn't he (as a former strong-arm exec) put together a real coup, and wrest the True Church of Scientology from David Miscavage?

    He knows where bodies are buried (ahem)...he knows how legal works, between Marty and Mike, couldn't they overthrow David Miscavage?

    Wouldn't that be the real Loyal Officer command intention at this point for Marty?

    Wonder what the heck is stopping those two brave "Independents" from "saving" the main church by walking in the front door with an army of alphabet agency agents right behind them? Marty may be dirty...but even Gotti was put away by his former second in command, who was guilty of over a dozen murders.
     
  14. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Big story about Marty Rathbun in THE INDEPENDENT

    At this time, Marty Rathbun's function is mainly PR and PR damage control for L. Ron Hubbard's reputation and L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology's reputation.

    He does things such as visiting Germany and "handling" Ursula Caberta to the point where Ursula was seemingly eating out his hand, with Ursula saying things like, "I have nothing against L. Ron Hubbard," etc.

    David Miscavige is universally unpopular, and riding the wave of that (well deserved) unpopularity is a guaranteed path (so the idea goes) into the minds of those Marty&Friends are seeking to persuade.

    The outside the CoS Scientologists have finally found an effective "button" to "push," with which to apply the following "LRH datum." That button is the "Church" of Scientology as run by David Miscavige, with Miscavige regarded as an "anti-Scientologist":

    "The objective is to be identified as attackers of popularly considered evils [Miscavige, and Miscavology, i.e. perverted or 'Reverse Scientology', i.e., 'anti-Scientology']. This declassifies us from former labels. It reclassifies our attackers [Miscavige and his 'Reverse Scientologists' and (mosty Exscn and 'wog') 'anti-Scientologists'] as evil people."

    Confidential 'Black Propaganda' 12 January 1972


    Notice how Scientology (and its stinky reputation) becomes "reverse" or "anti" Scientology, right before our very eyes, and it's supposed to be a seamless transition. Then, the "true Scientologists," fighting the "reverse Scientologists" (Miscavige, etc.) and the "anti Scientologists" (anyone who persists in not being "handled" or cannot otherwise be used by the true Scientologists) become the good guys, and the "anti Scientologists' become the bad guys.

    Feel "handled" yet? :)
     
  15. Infinite

    Infinite Crusader

    Brandy infused musings . . .

    ..

    Thanks peeps. I needed that gentle reality adjustment. I'm still calming down from Marty's exploitation of the Lisa McPherson tragedy to promote Scientology tech. How could someone do that? My musings led me into attempting to "get to know Marty" but, of course, he's a Scientologist and that explains everything. It doesn't matter that he's pro-environment or politically liberal or a good person beneath it all or any number of otherwise positive things. Scientology comes first . . . KSW, baby. It really is like dealing with a drug addict.
     
  16. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Patron

    Yes, I watched the "handling" of Ursula by Mike Rinder with one eyebrow cocked like Spock. Very "Martin Luther Lite" of him, wasn't it?

    I may sound harsh re. the responsibilities I assign to the M & M Show...but since I have worked for 20 years with law enforcement, the FBI, the DoJ, SPACECOM and other military entities, and both major stock exchanges on legal assurances for security, I find all this coddling of Mike and Marty utterly and completely some unreal "namby pamby" nonsense extraordinaire.

    This is a nation of laws. I don't care about putting in "ethics" on M & M, I only wish to see federal justice put in on CoS, and specifically, the person in charge of this scam, David Miscavage. Sooner than later as "justice delayed is justice denied."
     
  17. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest

    Re: Brandy infused musings . . .

    Infinite -

    I knew Marty when he first joined the SO, when he was EPF and in the GO in LA. I knew him before and after he was (innocently) involved in the Joe Coletto murder/suicide (he wasn't the hero he was made out to be, either... there is a very different version to that story).

    Marty was in minor posts in the GO for a very long time because he was recovering from the shock of that incident. He wasn't anybody special until at least 1983.

    He was a mess with a big ego and a chip on his shoulder when he first joined the SO and the GO. He had a messed up, dysfunctional childhood and believed Scn would sort that out for him. It never did. He never sorted out his family situation. He was lost, confused and angry when he first joined, he was traumatised after what he saw and he hung onto the only identity he could - as an SO Member - if only to save his sanity and to feel he could be somebody important.

    He never fixed his original problems he came to Scientology to handle. I hope he reads this so he knows that therein is where his true peace of mind will be found.

    I don't like Mark Rathbun and never did. He is a mess. He has been a mess for over 20 years. And yet, I have some compassion for him. Maybe it is because he is such a product of being in the wrong place, wrong time over and over and over again all his life and he is still caught up in this cycle. I mean, my God, when we hurt Scn in a big way anywhere in the world, he's set himself up as the target for as OSA reaction with his big ego and ridiculous claims of running the show. It might be funny, but his whole life has been this way and it STILL IS this way. Pre-Scn, after Scn - the man is caught up in some horrendous personal backwards tornado and until he resolves the ORIGINAL issues that drew him to Scn, he always will be.

    Most Indies eventually realise Marty is not exactly on top of things and leave. Still, he's managed to get so much OSA attention that they actually advertise on his behalf and have all the "ins" thinking he's been some top exec they never knew and wondering about it. They see his website, they look for it because OSA is always talking about Marty. Weird, but true. OSA has been his best advertising.

    I hope Marty will eventually find a balance for himself. He's been a victim, but it started when he looked for a way out of his terrible home situation and Scientology exploited an angry, vulnerable, hurt young man. If he sees this on a personal basis and gets out of his blaming DM for everything, there is even hope for Marty.

    But he's still annoying and drives me crazy with his bullshit propaganda, too.
     
  18. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Patron

    Thank you for the backstory, Gottabrain. Very enlightening.

    I knew that Marty came into CoS as somewhat a "lost boy"...and just by simple observation of his actions today, he's certainly grown into a "lost man." This is a sad state of affairs for Marty, certainly.

    But there are "bigger fish to fry" here...you could make the case that "Sammy the Bull" Gravano was a "lost kid" when he joined up with the Gambino crime family, and ended as an "exec" to John Gotti. Still, that "lost kid turned lost man" testified and closed down that decades long crime family run of criminality.

    The Church of Scientology, as it stands, is a huge billion dollar criminal syndicate under the religious cloaking. David Miscavige is the head of this underhanded undertaking. The Gambino's gave out free turkeys at Thanksgiving...small favors and deeds do not absolve one of one's crimes in the justice system.

    I see this as an American citizen that finds there is an insidious criminal organization operating with a billion dollar budget outside the law. They break big and little laws. I just want the trial to commence. Mike and Marty can go state's evidence or join in the defense, I don't care. After justice is administered, leave the "church" to its (hopefully somewhat better) business. But not until then.

    Simple. But hard when you're dealing with a syndicate.
     
  19. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest

    I want this as badly as you do. But have you missed the people who have recently actively come forward again? Bill Franks (former ED Int), Steve Manning (sister just posted as a Newbie this week), others who were on the original ship, some who are so new they are still Anonymous posters here but have a great deal of solid background and facts. Some of the others who dealt with Lisa MacPherson seem very, very close to coming forward.

    Forget Marty. Focus on the others.

    There is a whole new wave of potential witnesses starting up again.

    You missed the thrust of what I was saying in my post - perhaps I did not make it clear enough. Marty will not get what he wants with COS because it is not truly what he wants and it is not truly him and deep down, he knows this. Whether you want to call it karma or look at it as the trends of his life, what appears to be his motivation and what is actually happening are two very different things.

    What is actually happening is COS is very rapidly coming apart, governments are taking action, and wave after wave of new witnesses and testimonies keep coming out. Scientology itself is ridiculed - the propaganda is not fooling the general public and the ones who have left are mostly waking up eventually, anyway.
     
  20. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Patron

    I just started reading the Bill Franks threads last evening...you have a excellent point, Gottabrain, regarding strategies for prosecution and the witness pool that is breaking free and thinking for themselves (and of others.) It is most promising and a very important development indeed.

    Yes, Marty has world-view issues, and that affects his actions. It is clear, and in the way you have pointed out, it is very unlikely his current visions will be attainable.


    The thread did begin about Marty...which is where I began. When Mike and Marty blew, I had high hopes. Then when everything stalled into inaction, I sat and watched for month upon month and marveled at the weirdness of the "Reformation Church of Scientology" that Rathburn and Rinder were devolving.


    I am grateful for your pointing me to Steve Manning and will be reading for the other new exes that are exiting and posting.


    It's been a long haul...I suppose I rant from time to time. Forgive me for that. But I do believe that "justice delayed is justice denied" so I look forward to the unraveling...a syndicate is a hard nut to crack...but usually they implode, as you infer, Gottabrain.


    Thanks.
    :hattip:
     

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