Caliwog Blog: Do the upper OT levels cause cancer?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Caliwog, Mar 29, 2012.

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  1. Caliwog

    Caliwog Patron Meritorious

    Hi all - I'm trying to make more time for Caliwog's Blog, and I wanted to share my latest post with my ESMB friends. Fire away, LRH apologists!

    Do the upper OT levels cause cancer?

    A quick quote from Marty’s latest testimonial, this one from forty-plus-year Scientologist Phil Bruemmer:

    “I have also become aware of an inordinate number of persons on, or completed on, OT VII/VIII who have lost their bodies due to cancer.

    “In 1989 I lost a wife to cancer. She was a Class VIII C/S who was bogged on VII for years. Apparently, there was no tech to debug her (or no one cared) and she later got cancer, suffered for a number of years and finally dropped the body.

    “There were some others who got cancer at that time and I have recently learned there have been many more, even in recent times. It makes it seem the tech not only does not work, but that its unworkability is extremely hazardous.

    “I do not believe for one moment that LRH would release a tech which was so dangerous. I can only conclude that the original LRH materials were altered.”

    Okay, got that? OT7 and OT8, if not properly applied, cause cancer.

    It couldn’t have anything to do with the fact that so many Scientologists smoke like chimneys? Or that LRH famously said that “not smoking enough will cause cancer“?

    Now, I’m not just posting this to make fun of a Scientologist for his ridiculous medical beliefs. (Okay, maybe that’s a little bit of the reason I’m posting it.)

    I’m posting it because it amazes me that a sixty year old man, living in 21st century Europe, could be so ignorant about the cause of disease.

    I’m posting it because it is a reminder of one of the true dangers of Scientology – the fact that perfectly sensible adults make terrible decisions that affect their lives, and they make these decisions because they unquestioningly follow everything said by L. Ron Hubbard, a man proven to be an uneducated, ignorant, power-hungry scam artist.

    I’m posting this because it answers all those LRH apologists who say “Well, so what if Hubbard was a bit of a scumbag? There’s still value in his teachings.”

    How many of those cancer-stricken OT7s and OT8s would be alive today were they not Scientologists, and had they been following the advice of real doctors (and following societal norms) rather than, as one Scientologist I know so blatantly put it, “doing whatever L. Ron Hubbard says”?

    A lot of people, even the Wise Beard Man Mark Bunker himself, have defended Freezoners, Independents and Marty himself, saying that they have no problem with Scientology as long as the practices aren’t abusive. Well, I say the abuses are right there in LRH’s teachings, and here is yet more proof.

    Remember, Scientologists genuinely believe this shit. “Doctor” Hubbard said that what really causes people to get sick is being surrounded by negative people. So it’s easy to see how a dedicated Scientologist could draw such a ridiculous conclusion about the link between the upper OT levels and cancer. (They seem to ignore the fact that LRH said reading the OT3 material would cause death by pneumonia. Dunno about you, but Caliwog is pneumonia-free.)

    Dissatisfied Scientologists think the reason OT7 and OT8 don’t give them the gains they were promised is that the levels aren’t being properly delivered by the Church. Hell, if I invested hundreds of thousands of dollars and the best years of my life, I’d want someone to blame, too.

    Those of us on the outside know that the OT levels don’t work because they are sci-fi bullshit, and that Phil’s wife is most likely dead because she didn’t get proper medical treatment in time.

    And yet, forty years of life-experience and one dead wife later, poor ol’ Phil still thinks that DM killed his wife by altering the tech. It’s hard not to feel sorry for the guy.

    It’s also hard not to get angry when you realize that such shocking ignorance runs rampant throughout Scientology.

    And it’s really hard not to resent Marty Rathbun for wanting to squeeze a few more dollars out of these people before they realize that all of Scientology, not just the Church, is a scam. If Marty didn’t have his well-publicized business, isn’t it possible that Phil would be going to his doctor for a thorough check-up rather than going to Texas to pay for more of LRH’s bullshit?

    Do people have the right to make stupid decisions that result in their own deaths? Of course they do. But let’s not pretend that independent Scientology is a safe alternative, because it isn’t. ALL of the abuses of Scientology stem, in one way or another, from the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard. People buying the OT levels from Marty are going to make the same poor life decisions as people buying the OT levels from the organized Church. Let’s not forget that – and let’s not keep quiet about it.
     
  2. Jquepublic

    Jquepublic Silver Meritorious Patron

    Here's my thing - I don't see how a process could cause cancer, even one that's off the wall. I DO see how the repeated ingestion of large doses of vitamins in order to "stay sessionable" could contribute to that, though, particularly in light of recent research. It doesn't invalidate your point re: blind adherance to "scripture" or faith, but that in itself is not exclusive to Scientology. As far as I know, though, cancer deaths among Scientologists are disproportionately high compared to deaths from the same illness among Christian Scientists and similar sects who don't seek out medical care when ill. I'm actually going to spend some time looking for studies on this because it's a point that keeps coming up.
     
  3. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    The problem with that is that I've never seen any actual studies which verify that, just a lot of anecdotal comments about ots who have died of cancer. The reality is that it takes more than anecdotes to determine a pattern. Even if there is an elevated occurrence of cancer among scientologists, that need not be as a result of the tech. Factors of selection such as age of population, exposure to environmental toxins, carcinogens, etc., may all be implicated.

    Scientologists are not ONLY scientologists. They belong to other groups with factors which may predispose them to cancers. For instance, cigarette smoke is a known carcinogen, even secondhand smoke. Most of us with experience in scientology have commented upon the presence of numerous smokers among org personnel. The longer a person is 'in' the more likely they are to have smoked or suffered exposure to cigarette smoke AND ALSO the more likely they are to have reached 'ot' status.

    This is especially true among those scientologists who experienced a lengthy involvement with the church from the 70s or even before. This latter since the health risks of tobacco have only begun to be appreciated since the latter 60s. Those who smoked or were routinely exposed to second hand smoke in the early years would be of greater risk of cancer as they age and also more likely to have attained ot status. Thus elevated cancer levels could be reflective of scientology's 'smoker culture' rather than something about the scientology materials or cult requirements themselves.

    As an example of another plausible hypothesis which might account for the anecdotes: environmental factors on the Freewinds may be conducive to cancer.

    IF that were true then ots may be the effect of cancer as they are more likely to suffer exposed to the hazards on the Freewinds than other scientologists. Moreover, that elevated risk would be completely independent of the fact of auditing on advanced levels, being dependent on environment not tech.

    Thus, IF such an elevated incidence of cancer were seen to exist, it is still well within reason for multiple different factors to be at cause for the effect. Scientology is not just a 'belief system', there is also a culture with common behavioral & environmental factors which are largely independent of the specific scientology beliefs. Actually determining if there is a genuine pattern of elevated risk is not a simple process itself. The problem of determining the specific factors causing an elevated risk is even more difficult.

    So really there are at least two factors to consider:

    1. The first is whether there in fact truly exists a propensity for cancer among scientologists higher than that of similar population sub-groups.

    2. Secondly, given the first what factors actually do account for such a propensity, as opposed to the general supposition that it must be scientology.



    It MIGHT be that the subject itself is somehow a risk factor, but it is far more likely to be a combination of demographics, environmental risks, and similiar epidemiological factors which account for instances of cancer among scientologists, just as with other populations.


    Mark A. Baker
     
  4. SpecialFrog

    SpecialFrog Silver Meritorious Patron

    I find the cancer stuff in Martyworld kind of weird. It appears that some of his followers believe some combination of the following:

    1) Being PTS gives you cancer
    2) Squirrel OT processes give you cancer
    3) Being OT should prevent you from getting cancer
    4) Scientology cures cancer

    From the above they seem to conclude that Miscavige is an SP and / or has squirrelled the tech because otherwise all these OTs wouldn't have died of cancer.

    I agree with Mark that there isn't really enough data to conclude that more OTs (or Scientologists) die of cancer than the general population.

    It seems reasonable to speculate that believing the above things would make you less likely to seek out proper treatment if you got cancer, but it's hard to say.

    Either way, people seem to have strong opinions on the causes of cancer backed up by very little fact.
     
  5. StickbyMe

    StickbyMe Patron with Honors

    Look, either you're in the camp that thinks the tech works (Scientologists, FreeZoners, people who take what they want from Scn) or you're in the camp who thinks it doesn't.

    The idea that asking yourself to think about stuff causes cancer is ludicrous. You are barking up the wrong tree with this one.
     
  6. TheRealNoUser

    TheRealNoUser Patron with Honors

    What if being hooked up to an E-Meter for 8 hours a day running a low-level current thru your body causes cancer? Unlikely, I know - but no real tests have been done on this "spiritual device". The whole religion thing means they can get away with anything it seems.
     
  7. A.K. Myers

    A.K. Myers Patron with Honors

    The only place you can do OT 8 is on board the Deathwinds.
    I wonder if that has anything to do with it???

    :coolwink:
     
  8. Caliwog

    Caliwog Patron Meritorious

    I can't believe I'm about to type this, Mark, but you make a good point -- that the beliefs <i>and</i> environment of Scientology cause cancer.

    Just underlines my point that the study of Scientology is dangerous! :)
     
  9. Practicing Scientology does not cause cancer, but it does absolutely nothing to prevent it either.

    It's pretty safe to say that if you spend four or five hours a day involved in activities to promote good health and live a health conscience lifestyle, you will be a lot healthier than spending four or five hours a day exorcising imaginary disembodied space aliens that you believe are running around in your head and following Hubbard's quackery
     
  10. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    If scientology provably cured or prevented Cancer, people would be beating a path to Orgs and knocking down the doors to get in.

    In my life, I've casually inspected the statistics amongst the sub-group of "people I know". The percentage who contract cancer is about the same for scientologists and "never were scientologists". Any death from cancer is a tragedy, stay healthy people.
     
  11. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest

    This is, indeed, an epic and historical moment.

    Cali and Mark have agreed. OMG :omg:
     
  12. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Well, not exactly.

    The point to which he agreed is not in fact a point that I actually made. :)

    My point is that there is neither any clear evidence which supports a conclusion of a higher risk of cancer among scientologists, nor anything which clearly suggests that such a risk if indeed present is in any way dependent on the tech.

    Perhaps those things may be true. Yet, even if there proves to be such a pattern of cancer among scientologists, it is far more likely to be based on epidemiological factors & population demographics than the tech of auditing itself.

    However, all things considered, there really isn't anything to support the idea that such a pattern exists apart from partisan supposition and anecdotal reports.


    Mark A. Baker
     
  13. NoName

    NoName A Girl Has No Name

    I was wondering the same thing. It seems that the amount of time spend aboard the Cancer Ship increases as one goes up the Bridge. That's the simplest explanation.
     
  14. Ogsonofgroo

    Ogsonofgroo Crusader

    Imho Hubbard's crapolla is a type of cancer/virus/plague thingy. If nothing else it certainly creates the environment for bad shit to happen to ya.
    That there are people dying of untreated diseases should come as no surprise to those who know how the long-con runs, ie~ steal yer lucre, make sure you sign paper you're happy with that, work your life out, then make sure you die ~ before catching on an demanding refund or something equally SP.~&~>>>>>>>>>>>>>


    all in a days work fer scilontology.

    Thanks LRon, you demented piece 0f intergalctic debris Grrrrrrrrrrrrr:angry:
     
  15. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    I doubt it.

    IMO, it's probably more of a case of NOT being medically treated due to the beliefs in "the tech".

    This has also been a topic of discussion on OCMB.
     
  16. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    .. and here on ESMB, several times.
     
  17. Ogsonofgroo

    Ogsonofgroo Crusader

    ... and WWP as well.
     
  18. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    So smoking inadequately quantities causes cancer? You will die from pnuemonia? Pnuemonia is relatively easily resolved these days. More '50s hogwash. As for smoking....:duh:

    You WILL die from following Scientology. You will follow unhealthy personal health practices...High stress, poor diet, sleep deprivation and the list goes on.

    Here's the key to death: Scientology preaches that you DO NOT seek medical help to prevent a minor (or major) health issue from turning into a serious and/or deadly health issue. They would rather you "end cycle" when Scientology has failed and it will, than to see a doctor and receive appropriate treatment.

    So, maybe the OT levels may or may not CAUSE cancer, I cannot definitely answer that. But the precursors are there. The bad habits are fully entrenched by then. What it will definitely do is stop you from taking steps to resolve the problem or prevent any situation from worsening IMO.
     
  19. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    Glory, glory hallelujah! Hell hath frozen over!

    I know, I know, I was a bit slow here tonight, just HAD to say something...LOL
     
  20. Ogsonofgroo

    Ogsonofgroo Crusader

    ^^^ been said many tumes before, what better way to end a long-con than for the victim to fade away/die, LRon knew full well that the dead have trouble getting their money back, its all aout fine tuning that divergence of death and poverty.

    Thanks Ron! & Fuck you OSA!

    :angry::angry::angry:
     

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