Current CofS vs Hubbard's CofS

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by asagai, Jun 28, 2008.

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  1. asagai

    asagai Patron Meritorious

    I am an ex from Hubbard's days of running the church and when newer exes come out saying DM is the cause of the "bad" things about the church I always try to remind them of the LRH tech and policy that is the genus of DM's batty actions.

    Nevertheless I have generally held the opinion that the abuses do seem to have got worse during DM's reign, despite Hubbard's overboarding, imprisonments, and his operations "Snow White" and "Freakout", etc.

    A few days ago I heard an account, which while minor, compared to many abusive practices then and now, was nevertheless quite shocking to me.

    Just after I had joined Scn in the late 60's, my sister visited the org to see me. She wasn't anti-scn and had actually been instrumental in helping me find out about the subject. She was pretty open-minded about it.

    She walked into the org and said she'd come to see her brother. Div 6 asked her to do a personality test, which she didn't mind doing then she asked to see me and they said the test just needed to be marked first. She was given an eval and told communication was her ruin. She asked to see me and the reg she had to sign up for the communication course first.

    She was heavy regged for several hours and told that before she could see me she had to show commitment to Scn and sign up for £200 worth of services - a lot of money back then. She was prevented from seeing me every time she asked.

    Eventually, in order to see me she compromised and agreed to think about it overnight and would let them know the next day and they finally agreed to let her see me because that was showing some degree of commitment.

    They let her see me and next day she phoned up the Org and said she wouldn't be doing the courses.

    To her great credit, she never told me about the duress she had been put under in order to see me. I was so enthusiastic about Scn, that she didn't want to deflate me! In fact she has only told me nearly forty years later!!! :melodramatic:

    A minor story compared to many, but I found it quite shocking to think that Div 6 did such dirty tricks way back then and people who I thought were my friends would put a member of my family under such stress.

    If I heard such stories from these DM days, I wouldn't be surprised, but I am genuinely surprised that such a thing was done back then in a relatively outer org, far away from Ron's bully activities on the Flagship.

    So this has set me wondering again as the whether DM's church is more abusive and morally corrupt than Ron's church was.

    Anyone else got any then stories and now stories, so we can compare the two churches?
  2. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I remember life in the SO was more FUN in the 70s than in the 80s and 90s. I don't mean it was more fun all the time, but the fun times seemed to happen more often then.

    Especially before the 2D Rules FO was issued. :)

  3. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Well for one thing, I call neither a "church". That angle has only been invented and pushed for the obvious reasons.

    IMO nothing has changed, except the "show me the money" has become a whole lot worse.
  4. Escalus

    Escalus Patron Meritorious

    I want to somewhat echo Fart... er... you know what I mean.

    For all the stupidity of it we did have fun with it in the 70s. In a college town when you told people you were a Scientologist, you might have found it easier to get laid. Now people will just hand you deodorant and a toothbrush...
  5. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    How true

    We had a saying in the CCLA of the early 70's that "if it wasn't fun, it wasn't Scientology." Another commonly quoted line, also promoted by Yvonne Jentzch was that "Seriousness equals Mass.". Also, "Scientology is the only game in the Universe where everyone wins."

    Another thing which I actually experienced in 1978 which is very tangible and very very different than the Church under DM is that I received L11 from auditor Alex Sibersky in 1977. I was satisfied with the level and thought Siberski was a great auditor. Nevertheless in 1978, I received a call from the registrar, David Light, telling me that Siberski had been declared suppressive and all his pc's were being called back to redo the services he delivered. The difference between 1978 and the DM regime? I was not charged for redoing L11 with a different auditor, the Flag Land Base comped me and delivered it for free!
  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    It's interesting reading accounts of various times and locations in Scientology. The late 1960s and early 1970s were intense periods, with emphasis on production at Orgs. 'Academies' at the larger Orgs were packed with people, and senior staff, recently returned from a stay on the "Flagship," and with an "unreasonable" "tough," and "ruthless" attitude (for application of 'KSW', fixed glare and all that) were a common sight - and sound.

    Scientology was and is compartmentalized, and one of the reasons why there's *tension* in Scientology - then and now - is that these separate compartments are expected to co-exist symbiotically, although one might be only dimly aware of the other.

    While people were told, "If it isn't fun it isn't Scientology" at one location, at another location - often in the same building - another person was being screamed at that this is a "deadly serious activity," etc., and across the hall someone was being 'Hard Sold' out of a recently acquired inheritance, while another was "in session" cogniting that he was once King Quendoor of the planet Neeno and grinning broadly at his newly discovered "whole track" royal identity.

    Meanwhile, the "Commodore" has just issued orders through his wife through the "Flagship's" telex machine to the U.S. Guardian's Office that a 100 lb woman, author Paulette Cooper, was to be "terminateldly handled" for having written a paperback book displeasing to the "Commodore" of the "fun" religion, Scientology.

    A well-to-do semi-"celebrity" visits an Org and is treated with kid gloves, and after leaving is denounced as a useless flake by the Executive who had just been listening attentively to her go on about this and that - *tension* - The Sea Org at Flag regarded the Class 4 (later 5) staff with contempt, the Class 4 (later 5) Org staff regarded Missions with contempt. The most "fun" people were at Celebrity Centers and Missions, yet these places were by no means always "fun." Mission Holders had plenty of pressures placed on them, even back in the"idealic" old days of the 1970s - but it was compartmentalized and kept behind closed doors.

    Things became somewhat "loose" in Scientology around 1978, 1979, 1980ish, after the FBI raids with Hubbard on the run. Some Scientologists remember this period with fondness, without realizing that the more relaxed atmosphere was due to "LRH being briefly off lines."

    When, in late 1980, "LRH" came back "on lines," things started to become not quite as pleasant as they had been, culminating in "LRH's" instructions to his #1 henchman David Miscavige to loot the bank accounts and properties of the Missions. Hubbard knew that some of the Mission Holders had become aware of previously secret documentation - as a result of a court-ordered document-release. Some were writing to him asking questions. Hubbard was looking at his own mortality, and working on his various "legacy" and monument-building projects, and establishing legal trusts that would ensure that his "name" would be "smashed into history," and Mission Holders, asking annoying questions, were not "needed or wanted" by him.

    The looting of the Missions was where Miscavige scored major points with his "Boss," and began his ascension to, himself, becoming the "Boss" of Scientology. Unlike most Scientologists, Miscavige is aware of all of Scientology's compartments, and aware also of all of its founder's briefings and writings, and seems to take it quite seriously. No wonder he's *tense*.
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2009
  7. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Excellent, accurate write-up, Veda! :thumbsup:

    In those days one could lurk on the outer fringes at Missions and Orgs and sort of ignore the GO black ops that one heard of (we heard of them partly because we were on the fringes and more in touch with the "wog" world press and also because scientology tongues tended to loosen in the outer orgs and missions). We could also more safely ignore Hubbard's more vicious policies.

    If one found oneself being drawn in towards the crazy centre of Scn one could withdraw again to the calmer waters of the Missions. Personally I had observed that the closer you got to Ron the battier the ogranisational behaviour became.

    Some of us enhanced the "fun" side of scientology and it was genuinely exciting and wonderful. We believed, foolishly, that one day all of the scn world would be as much fun. How very wrong we were! :duh:
  8. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Awesome post, fills in missing data!

    This last bit about LRH masterminding the looting and destruction of the Missions is generally not fully understood. It is somewhat new to me. If this is the way DM came to power, it explains almost everything as to why the C of S is the way it is today. Veda, your historical insights are extremely interesting and really appreciated. I hope you keep them coming!
  9. LA SCN

    LA SCN NOT drinking the kool-aid

    GREAT POST!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
  10. Blue Spirit

    Blue Spirit Silver Meritorious Patron


    Lots of reality above.

    Just think of the reasonableness exercised

    to stay on "The Only Road to Total Freedom" ?
  11. Blue Spirit

    Blue Spirit Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yep !

    Ain't that the sad truth ! :grouch:
  12. When you break it down to the basics the final result has always been the same "a scam". If I had to pick between the two evils I would pick the current version under Miscavige over Hubbard's version in a heartbeat. Miscavige wants to get you through the scam and clean out your bank account as soon as possible, he's not interested in having you hang out once you are flat broke, he'll declared you and allow you to get back to freedom, where as Hubbard wanted to create slave to worship him for life, Scientology under Hubbard was a life sentence.
  13. everfree

    everfree Patron Meritorious

    Awesome. I think I just found my signature line.
  14. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Much of what you wrote in your post agrees with other accounts I've read (and to some degree my own experience) EXCEPT for your sentence above.
    Are you implying in any way that DM becoming the "Boss" of scientology had anything to do with Hubbards intention? If so, what supporting evidence do you have for that?
    With regards to DM scoring major points (with Hubbard) for looting the Missions, whose account of this time period are you using which led you to believe this?
    My intention here isn't to defend Hubbard, as I do believe he is the source for alot of the negative crap that happened within the CO$, but I believe that DM has escalated the level of insanity to a whole new level. He's just completely Fu**ing insane, and there's zero evidence that I can see that Hubbard ever intended for him to get to a controlling position. DM didn't just start from where Hubbard left off, but from the accounts I've read he cut Hubbards communication lines to others at the end and fed him a bunch of false reports as to what was really happening within scientology.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  15. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I'd like to know more about this also.

    I gather that Hubbard considered the first mission conference a mutiny,
    and was thus happy to see them suppressed.

    Did he know their stats? Or did DM hide them?
  16. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Dueling Posts

    Veda is very sharp in this historical area but Type 4 PTS makes a very good point. I'd like to know how Veda obtained his knowledge of early Sea Org history in general and what his specific responses would be to Type 4's questions. Before reading Veda's post on this thread, I always believed the mission holders conference was DM's and not LRH's doing.
  17. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    That's the current Marty Rathbun shore story. The oldest shore story was that Hubbard had left his body and was on the mothership and was no longer operating his body in 1982 (some other subordinate thetan having taken over), then the "Hubbard was in a coma in 1982" story became popular. Now, the latest is that Hubbard had his "communication lines cut," etc. Just why Hubbard couldn't simply pick up a phone and talk to the Mission Holders, and others, and find out what's what is never explained. Was David Miscavige keeping Hubbard locked in a room? Was Hubbard strapped to a chair with duct tape?

    The idea that it wasn't primarily "accumulated by-passed charge on his case," etc., or Marcabian attack-thought-beams, or even the diabolical 21 year old David Miscavige, but that Hubbard had had a hidden agenda since day one and was concentrating on pursuing that hidden agenda or, as he worded it shortly after having written 'Excalibur' in 1938, his "real goal," is - for some - not on the list of possibilities considered. May I suggest that - for those few hold outs - that they add it to the list of possibilities.

    There is so much information, and much of it has been known for so long, and has become so easily accessible via the Internet, that it's difficult to know where to begin when old news is regarded as new news.

    "DM" did start from where Hubbard left off - that's the horrible truth of it.

    However, don't take my word for it. It's up to the individual to examine this information and connect the dots himself.

    Martin Samuels was the founder of the Delphi school in Oregon and a Mission Holder. His comments re. Hubbard, Miscavige, Missions, etc., can be found in the 'Reflections' chapter of the book, 'Messiah or Madman?'. Mission Holder and Class 8, FEBC, Bent Corydon, addresses the area in four chapters in that book, 'The Savior Lives Just Down the Road!', 'A Reform Movement is Derailed', 'Hubbard's Billion Dollar Caper', and 'The Savior's Revenge'.

    That's a beginning - and this information was known over twenty years ago, before the various shore stories, for some, overtook reality.

    There's a lot of information to examine - This is some of it:

    David Mayo 1986 interview. Suggest reading 'Tape 3', or doing a 'find' on 'insatiable lust for money and power':
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  18. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Thanks Veda!

    Veda - Thanks for your last post and for listing some of your sources of information. I had not read "Messiah or Madman?" The exerpt on the six layers of the "onion" of Scientology is fantastic! It really helps in sorting out all the various things that happen to one througout a typical long career, spanning decades, in C of S. Things which seem implausible and impossible to explain are revealed to be commonplace occurances that are programmed to occur on a certain time table and happen to everyone who stays involved.

    I see that I had just completed Level 1 and was thrown suddenly into joining the Sea Org on a skipped gradient. This explains what happened to me on the Apollo and how I was treated. I was missing my indoctrination in Levels 2 and 3 when I arrived and hence could not make the adjustment to life aboard the ship.

    I also expeienced the super big crush reg cycle many years later where I was quadruple teamed by 3 OT registrars showing up unannounced at my house one night plus their getting Fred Schwartz on the phone to reg me as well and spending about 6 hours at a restaurant with me until the restaurant closed. My wife was caring for our newborn daughter only one week old so it was me against 4 OT sharks and I signed for a huge package which ultimately led to a bankruptcy, loss of my house in foreclosure and the wrecking of my marriage. This incredible event is actually SOP for someone at my level of indoctrination at that time.

    Each time so far, when I feel I have read all I could read on the subject of Scientology and begin to decide that there is nothing more to find out and am contemplating moving on to other major interests in life, something new (to me) and major pops up which fills in major gaps in my understanding.
    Thanks again for posting this stuff.
  19. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    I agree with you Free. It doesn't matter which person is at the top, LRH or DM.
  20. everfree

    everfree Patron Meritorious

    I thought it was to avoid the IRS from finding out that he was indeed running the church while maintaining the pretense that he resigned executive duties in 1966. Miscavige runs a similar scam today.

    I seem to remember that there was also a big evolution to destroy all of Hubbard's "advices" and other evidence of his actual management.

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