Did Hub have any original, good, ideas?

[Clay Pigeon]

The point is is that Ron is dishonest. Aleister Crowley's writings are the same tone and vein private, professional and public. Most people's are.

Hubbard's aren't. They're set up to dupe, mislead and manipulate for his personal gain.

That's the slam and noise.

Remember, Mary Sue and others went to prison attempting to clean Ron's files. Not their own files or the files of other's but Ron's files.

Hubbard's writings private, professional and public are layered like an onion in the same way Scientology is layered.

It is because his inner core intent is and was malevolent with the goal to mislead for personal gain.

To think that you've escaped this intent is to admit you're still duped.

The reason for the layering is because if people knew the pure intent the gig would be up; hence, the dishonesty of Hubbard.

Far from research Ron was weaving webs of deception.

This is why I say Scientology is a drug free work zone so that Ron could have a work free drug zone.

I do not believe we can judge another's inner world. Regardless of Hubbard's intentions men and women of good will can use the tools he created benevolently and effectively

 

[guanoloco]

I have met a tremendous amount of people who have suffered unspeakable abuse.

I have also met a ton of people who are psychotic... requiring meds and such. They suffer severe mood swings, lie, cheat, steal, can't work, practice poor hygiene, have breakdowns, stir up interpersonal trouble, promiscuity and lots of dysfunction.

Occasionally these two types meet and are the same person. Occasionally. Most of the time those who've suffered severe abuse are stable, productive, trustworthy people.

The times that I've been able to verify the psychotics' past I've discovered the direct opposite of what one would suspect. Instead of heavy handed abuse everyone of them were coddled and spoiled absolutely rotten.

I've met people that have had cigarettes extinguished on them from alcoholic abusive parents who were absolutely beautiful people and I've met people that never had any physical abuse and zero discipline who were absolute beasts.

There's an old saying "spare the rod, spoil the child" and it's applicable. I'm not advocating spankings and such but people crave discipline and raising children without it is the worst abuse possible.

Those I've met who've required lots of hand holding and patch up have been coddled.

When speculation appears here that Ron was abused as a child and suffered sexual abuse or what have you I suspect just the opposite.

I suspect that Ron, as the only child with doting grandparents and aunts and uncles, was spoiled rotten. He had zero regard for others and privately needed lots of hand holding, threw tantrums, had wild mood swings, promiscuous, drug abuse, inveterate lying...typical psychotic sociopath.

Children who are spoiled are bullies to their parents and authorities. Ron was a bully. Bullies are cowards who run when confronted. Ron ran his ass off.

I also tell people that there are beautiful people and beautiful bodies and occasionally they meet and are the same.

I don't think there's anything "technical" that can be done to a person that would drive them psychotic.

The RPF, the sleep deprivation, the hierarchical abuse, the beans and rice, the familial break ups...all of that severe abuse doesn't create psychotics, either. It just creates tons of regrettable pain and misery of memories and denied connection.

I'm with Trouble. The psychotic breaks stem from suggestion and being informed they're redtagged or something.

I can recall being told at an advanced org that my folders contained so much out tech it was a miracle I was able to function. The subsequent "correction" was an absolute waste and did more upset than anything "out" on my "case" as it was 2 or 3 intensives at bookoo rates just burnt away.

Now think of that. I paid for "professional" processing that was all fucked up and administered incorrectly, apparently. Instead of billing the original establishment for the "correction" time I'm responsible for the bill.

That was an advanced org. Guess what happens when Flag reviews your folders? Lo and behold they're riddled with "outtech" and it's a miracle that one isn't in intensive care somewhere breathing their last.

Who must pay for that? Ding, ding, ding! You guessed it.

Talk about jacking up one's TA and creating bypassed charge and wrong indicators and being driven psychotic.

 

[guanoloco]

That last post is merely my limited observation. YMMV

 

[Clay Pigeon]

That last post is merely my limited observation. YMMV

Why thank you for demurring G-man

I do not consider my Drill Instructors in Basic Training to have been bullies nor do I think of Hubbard as a bully.

I did know people in Sea Org mufti I thought to be bullies

 

[Koot]

Good to have you here Koot...

How honest was he?

I have no idea. A wizard friend and student of Crowley's work pegged him as a familiar sort of mage who shifted back and forth between the right hand path and the left hand path...

And beware!!!

One can be a very firm and dedicated, consecrated judeochristian sort who climbs to rare spiritual heights but the left hand path still will beckon...

Thanks CP, I'm still having a bit of fun with it so far. I don't quite get your left hand right hand concept but the idea of a consecrated judeochristian makes me very skeptical. Nobody is perfect and we all fuck up here and there. Reminds me of a poem. There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it ill behooves any of us, to talk about the rest of us.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Thanks CP, I'm still having a bit of fun with it so far. I don't quite get your left hand right hand concept but the idea of a consecrated judeochristian makes me very skeptical. Nobody is perfect and we all fuck up here and there. Reminds me of a poem. There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it ill behooves any of us, to talk about the rest of us.

Ahhh...

You are not well familiar with "The Work" as it is often known...

The use of expanded consciousness for wealth power and dominance is "The left hand path"

I recommend you acquire Robert S DeRopp's seminal and classic book "The Master Game"

Get the book. The version posted on the net i incomplete and leaves out an essential section

 

[Veda]

-snip-

Reminds me of a poem. There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it ill behooves any of us, to talk about the rest of us.

IIRC, that appeared as the content of an HCOB after the court ordered release of thousands of pages of secret Scientology documents showing extensive and detailed abuses and criminality stemming from Hubbard's orders, instructions, and Scientology (covert "dirty tricks") "Intelligence tech."

There were some articles about this in (pre Internet) newspapers showing a small amount of the material, and Scientologists were being conditioned to ignore and rationalize it away.

Those court-released, evidentiary, documents were important in deciphering the secretive subject of Scientology and showed, amongst other things, that Hubbard used many of the same tactics on his loyal followers that he used on outsiders and on enemies.

Hubbard was doing to his most loyal followers what he was trying to do to his worst enemies.

He was at war with everyone.

And this madness was built into the huge collection of mostly secret instruction upon which Scientology now operates.

That's why Scientology is called a Destructive Cult and why alerting vulnerable people to it is a good idea.

"Why don't people invite me to parties? Is it the bow tie?"​

 

[Koot]

I believe that during NDE's a being does leave the body, but I clearly recognize that it is a BELIEF.

There are many scientists engaged in research to determine what is really happening during NDE's. Atlantic Magazine discusses this research here:
THE SCIENCE OF NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-science-of-near-death-experiences/386231/

From the article it reads:
[bcolor=#ffff00]Most of the NDE studies have been retrospective, meaning the researchers looked for people who’d had such an experience to come forward and be interviewed. That poses a couple of problems, scientifically speaking.[/bcolor]

Given that the studies are retrospective, scientists are unable to utilize any tools they possess in an attempt to understand what is really happening, so this presents a major challenge in establishing scientific proof.

In your post you are essentially asserting that what happens when a scientologist feels he has exteriorized is equivalent to what an individual is experiencing during a NDE. And you're doing so with zero scientific evidence. (LRH writing something doesn't constitute scientific evidence )

If Scientologists are making this claim, and some can exteriorize at will, scientific experiments could much more easily be done because one of the major challenges when studying NDE's is no longer present. There would be no need for scientists to rely upon interviewing study participants AFTER their experiences. They would be able to study in real time what is happening when participants can exteriorize at will.

The problem being though is that while Hubbard and Scientologists loudly proclaim that Scientology is a science, they act as though they've got a severe allergy to science.

With the billions in liquid assets they possess it would be easy to finance research that confirm the claims made in Scientology. If they could just show scientific evidence that auditing raises IQ by a point an hour (as LRH claimed) or even a point per intensive of auditing, millions of wannabe customers would be waiting in line at all the Scientology centers around the world, ready to hand over their money. Being a Scientology auditor would be one of the fastest growing professions around the world.

If scientific evidence proving just a small fraction of the other claims made in Scientology, or at least establishing strong evidence, the personnel looking to procure new public in all the Scientology "churches" and missions could be eliminated, as there would be no need for them. Those staff could be trained as security guards instead, to help manage the crowds that form outside their organizations.

It is telling though that Hubbard and CoS fail to utilize the scientific method to confirm their claims in a way that the general public trust, when doing so would drive millions into their organizations.

When results vanish, so do the people. SCN is supposed to be actions that demonstrate to the INDIVIDUAL truths about life from THEIR own viewpoint. Truths that supposedly are in the axioms. Half of the tech is application. Not an easy task in my personal opinion but well worth the effort from my view point. People who do not think it will work can NOT make it work. Tough shit! The COS, evidently, is way, way off base, out tech and does not have it's "act 1" in and has been on this self destructive path for a long time.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

IIRC, that appeared as the content of an HCOB after the court ordered release of thousands of pages of secret Scientology documents showing extensive and detailed abuses and criminality stemming from Hubbard's orders, instructions, and Scientology (covert "dirty tricks") "Intelligence tech."

There were some articles about this in (pre Internet) newspapers showing a small amount of the material, and Scientologists were being conditioned to ignore and rationalize it away.

Those court-released, evidentiary, documents were important in deciphering the secretive subject of Scientology and showed, amongst other things, that Hubbard used many of the same tactics on his loyal followers that he used on outsiders and on enemies.

Hubbard was doing to his most loyal followers what he was trying to do to his worst enemies.

He was at war with everyone.

And this madness was built into the huge collection of mostly secret instruction upon which Scientology now operates.

That's why Scientology is called a Destructive Cult and why alerting vulnerable people to it is a good idea.

"Why don't people invite me to parties? Is it the bow tie?"​

Co$ is a destructive cult.

Scientology is a nondenominational applied religious philosophy.

Scientology is IDEAS!

Scientology is NOT a cult

(imho)

 

[Koot]

As I recall, the short piece From Clear to Eternity used the word "eternity" nine times, emphasizing that Scientologists were IN eternity.

An excerpt:

As I continue to research, I never cease to be amazed at the amount of gain potentially available to an individual...​

​

So what is one really looking at? The higher the level, the longer the time - because one is handling a higher band of potential gain.​

​

And what is one rising to, after all?​

​

One is rising to eternity​

​

And that is your future - ETERNITY.​

​

It will be good for you or bad...​

Not only was Hubbard shamelessly trying to frighten people with an old gimmick, he was letting Scientologists know that audited NOTs was going to be a long level that took a long time. It couldn't have helped morale that becoming "OT" officially took forever to accomplish.

But where did this come from?

Had Hubbard's upper level OT research led him to discover, contrary to his earlier teachings, that time was not an illusion created by a being?

Or was this just another "enemy tactic" that Hubbard was using on the unsuspecting Scientologists?

This particular "enemy tactic" was mentioned thirty years earlier in a lecture of 1952, during the (amphetamine enhanced) loose-lipped days, when Hubbard talkatively exposed many of the "enemy tactics" he would later use (and, in some instances, was then already using) on Scientologists.

Hubbard dismissively mentioned the repeated use of the word "eternity" while criticizing the Roman Catholic Church's use of the word to frighten and control people. (Note that Hubbard, fifteen years later, talked of how the Catholic Church had used "R6 bank" images and symbols to "implant its way to power," and then, himself, used, and ordered used, "R6 bank" images and symbols to forward Scientology.) Anyone with a box of old cassette recordings of the Philadelphia Doctorate Course lectures and an old cassette player can take lecture #40, side 2, around 312 - provided there's a counter on the cassette player - and find the complete statement.

At that same time (1952) Hubbard was scaring people by telling them they, without Scientology, would become "MEST," etc., and he would later use "endless agonized trillions" to scare people, but he didn't get around to scaring them with ominous repetitions of "eternity!" until 1982.

This is an excerpt from 1952 PDC tape #40, sans the additional explanation (noted above), which would be interesting to hear if someone would dig it up :

Yap, yap, yap, yap, eternity, eternity, eternity. Hell, there isn't any such thing as time, how the hell can there be an eternity? This is very weird. Eternal, eternal, boy, every time you turn around in this universe, you see eternity, forever, infinity of time. They don't exist.​

Hubbard's confidential instructions to Scientologists are that they are to use "aberrative" and "enemy tactics" on Scientology's enemies. However, Hubbard also, secretly, used "aberrative" and "enemy tactics" on Scientologists.

Hubbard would often publicly mention "enemy tactics" and, inevitably, present himself as the opponent of those tactics. This assured Scientologists that Hubbard would never use such tactics on them.

This is an old confidence man trick, most memorable in Scientology with Hubbard's references to "freedom," etc., and his depicting himself as "anti-authoritarian," etc. And, of course, let's not forget his assurances that Scientology does not use hypnosis and, in deed, that Scientology "de-hypnotizes" people.

One of the earliest to recognize this pattern, used by Hubbard, was Volney Mathison, who, in 1954, wrote:


"First he [Hubbard] denounces and exposes... then he uses the very power he has denounced."

The top of the OT scale is open ended. It has taken us half of an eternity to get here. I myself would opt for the route to higher awareness and ability. However that plays out. I am happy there are those who try.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

It has taken us half of an eternity to get here.

-snip-

"...half an eternity..."

That's a line that Hubbard used on Scientologists when he was spending most of his time watching old movies on TV, was on happy pills (tranquilizers), and knew there were no more OT levels to use as bait, so it was necessary to ___s____t____r____e____t____c____h___ the existing NOTs levels out as much as possible.

That was the same year that Hubbard wrote the Pain and Sex HCOB announcing that sex was invented (by ancient psychiatrists) to keep beings small.

Soaking up, uncritically, every bit of oobleck that Hubbard put out there is unwise, IMO.

 

[Type4_PTS]

When results vanish, so do the people. SCN is supposed to be actions that demonstrate to the INDIVIDUAL truths about life from THEIR own viewpoint. Truths that supposedly are in the axioms. Half of the tech is application. Not an easy task in my personal opinion but well worth the effort from my view point. People who do not think it will work can NOT make it work. Tough shit! The COS, evidently, is way, way off base, out tech and does not have it's "act 1" in and has been on this self destructive path for a long time.

That (which I bolded) while true, is a relatively minor point as per the teachings of Hubbard.

For new public walking through the door, their concern probably IS about their life, and that is what is addressed initially. But from a scientological point of view, that is way low on the responsibility scale. Hubbard teaches that to go OT you must get your responsibility level way up, so that you're taking full responsibility for all the dynamics, not just your life. (you know, that whole "salvaging this sector of the universe" bit)

To achieve massive dissemination as per Hubbard's stated intent one must get millions of people interested in Scientology services which promise all different sorts of abilities. If those stated abilities were for real and that was validated by the use of the scientific method, you can essentially communicate to the masses in a language they understand and trust.

But Hubbard and his organizations were allergic to the scientific method. And many of his claims were complete BS. Like "auditing increases IQ by a point an hour". Even if he believed that when he wrote it he had to realize at some point it was a false claim. But like so many other false claims, he never corrected it to set the record straight.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Not really. I'm saying that the abuses of COS can make
some psychotic. In fact abuses in general can make people
psychotic.

Lol ... yes Terril, I'm aware that some people can become psychotic at the drop of a hat too ... but scientology pushes, hounds and harrasses people into scary submission and not everyone can take the constant stress of it all ... or (more to the point) they don't want to!

The cult of scientology is psychotic (both in and out of the cofs) ... psychosis is what they are selling, but they sell it on a gradient, it's the only way they can sell it.

Choose a definition (for psychosis) read it ... and tell me I'm wrong.

The true end result of doing the scientology bridge is full blown psychosis, but it only really shows up and smacks people in the face at OT3 ... each individual is different and some will be able to distance themselves slightly while continuing or even hide it from themselves and others ... but the end result (of doing the bridge) is psychosis ... unless the person is strong enough to reject it and walk away.

IOW whether a willing participant ends up in a motorhome, screeching at the moon (with an arse full of drugs as an optional bonus) is a choice they each have to make but the good news is that it's reversible (for most people) if caught in time and the way to do that is to recognise the madness and run ... and then quietly clear your mind of every last scrap of cult crap.

Sadly, for many they are trapped in the madness forever (due to potential loss of family).

 

[Koot]

.

Soaking up, uncritically, every bit of oobleck that Hubbard put out there is unwise, IMO.[/QUOTE]


On that we can agree.

 

[Koot]

That (which I bolded) while true, is a relatively minor point as per the teachings of Hubbard.

For new public walking through the door, their concern probably IS about their life, and that is what is addressed initially. But from a scientological point of view, that is way low on the responsibility scale. Hubbard teaches that to go OT you must get your responsibility level way up, so that you're taking full responsibility for all the dynamics, not just your life. (you know, that whole "salvaging this sector of the universe" bit)

To achieve massive dissemination as per Hubbard's stated intent one must get millions of people interested in Scientology services which promise all different sorts of abilities. If those stated abilities were for real and that was validated by the use of the scientific method, you can essentially communicate to the masses in a language they understand and trust.

But Hubbard and his organizations were allergic to the scientific method. And many of his claims were complete BS. Like "auditing increases IQ by a point an hour". Even if he believed that when he wrote it he had to realize at some point it was a false claim. But like so many other false claims, he never corrected it to set the record straight.

I am not trying to rationalize or justify any of the BS, LRH's or the vultures that took over the CofS. I am just saying there are parts of the tech I have used and like. It is not all BS. IMHO it was not all nefariously created.

 

[George Layton]

The top of the OT scale is open ended. It has taken us half of an eternity to get here. I myself would opt for the route to higher awareness and ability. However that plays out. I am happy there are those who try.

Eternity is already half over!

 

[Terril park]

Lol ... yes Terril, I'm aware that some people can become psychotic at the drop of a hat too ... but scientology pushes, hounds and harrasses people into scary submission and not everyone can take the constant stress of it all ... or (more to the point) they don't want to!

The cult of scientology is psychotic (both in and out of the cofs) ... psychosis is what they are selling, but they sell it on a gradient, it's the only way they can sell it.

Choose a definition (for psychosis) read it ... and tell me I'm wrong.

The true end result of doing the scientology bridge is full blown psychosis, but it only really shows up and smacks people in the face at OT3 ... each individual is different and some will be able to distance themselves slightly while continuing or even hide it from themselves and others ... but the end result (of doing the bridge) is psychosis ... unless the person is strong enough to reject it and walk away.

IOW whether a willing participant ends up in a motorhome, screeching at the moon (with an arse full of drugs as an optional bonus) is a choice they each have to make but the good news is that it's reversible (for most people) if caught in time and the way to do that is to recognise the madness and run ... and then quietly clear your mind of every last scrap of cult crap.

Sadly, for many they are trapped in the madness forever (due to potential loss of family).

"psychosis
sʌɪˈkəʊsɪs/Submit
noun
a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality.
"they were suffering from a psychosis"

Most who went into Scientology did not become psychotic,
see def above.

There is a gradient scale of rationality with psychosis
at one end. Lesser examples might be because of indoctrination, for example "all black/white people are evil."

The organisations of Scn. are cult like and display much
irrationality. For an example the current manipulation of
Taryn Rinder. They continue to behave more and more
irrationally violating some of its basic tenets and betray its members.

To say "The true end result of doing the scientology bridge is full blown psychosis," is an overstatement and merely
propaganda.

 

[George Layton]

"psychosis
sʌɪˈkəʊsɪs/Submit
noun
a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality.
"they were suffering from a psychosis"

Most who went into Scientology did not become psychotic,
see def above.

There is a gradient scale of rationality with psychosis
at one end. Lesser examples might be because of indoctrination, for example "all black/white people are evil."

The organisations of Scn. are cult like and display much
irrationality. For an example the current manipulation of
Taryn Rinder. They continue to behave more and more
irrationally violating some of its basic tenets and betray its members.

To say "The true end result of doing the scientology bridge is full blown psychosis," is an overstatement and merely
propaganda.

scientology did a lot of different things to a lot of different people. It is still there and has the potential to continue if people continue to get involved in it. Does the validation of one's gained experience from scientology justify the chance of what may happen to the mind of yet another person becoming involved in scientology? Is what you have gained from it worth subjecting another person to it. Is what has happened to you because of scientology so important to you that you will gamble with another person's life becoming involved in scientology by presenting it as helpful?

What's true for you, may be untrue because of what hubbard convinced you was true. Because you have experienced something and someone has explained what you experienced does not make it true.

 

[Veda]

The top of the OT scale is open ended.

-snip-

Definition of OT from the Scientology Technical Dictionary of 1975, first printing. It's pretty definite:

"OPERATING THETAN, 1. a thetan exterior who can have but doesn't have to have a body in order to control or operate thought, life, matter, energy, space, and time. 2. willing and knowing cause over life, thought, matter, energy, space and time. And that would of course be mind, and that would of course be universe. 3. an individual who could operate totally independently of his body whether he had one or didn't have one...."​

Any OTs around? Nope. But there are a bunch of people walking around with varying degrees of Hubbardian significance attached to them.

 

[Koot]

Eternity is already half over!

Zero plus Zero equals Zero