"Doubt" is your friend, not your enemy.

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Oscar, Jun 14, 2017.

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  1. Oscar

    Oscar New Member

    When I was in Scientology back in the 60s, doubt was a low condition, and most of you are familiar
    with the Scientology conditions scale. Doubt is pretty far down there, just above treason. When
    you are tossed in a condition of doubt, they put a rag around your arm, and made
    you do manual labor in the basement, scrub floors, that sort of thing, eat leftovers, and humiliate you,
    break your spirit, until you "have a cognition" i.e., return to the flock.

    This is a clever trick by Hubbard. See, he doesn't want you to doubt, does he? Hmmm?

    If you doubt, you might leave. So, stigmatizing doubt by making it a low condition is a means
    of controlling the flock. But, think about this; every major thrust forward, every
    major aggregate shift upwards in collective human consciousness, somewhere in there
    seeding the advance is doubt. The renaissance is a good example, where people challenged
    old ways, rethought new, but it started with doubt about the old, which gave way to thinking
    about new ways of thinking, looking, etc, about religion, the arts, and life, in general.

    Doubt is your friend. That realization was the turning point for me, which led me out
    of Scientology, not that I doubted Scientology, I realized Scientology was wrong about doubt.

    If Scientology were wrong about doubt, how much more was it wrong about? The more I looked, the more I found that didn't ring true, or was a half truth.

    Doubt is NOT a condition, this is the fundamental lie. It is a high state of consciousness.

    Scientology uses the term 'awareness'. Awareness is more of a temporal thing, a situational thing, the grander, broader achievement, the grander objective, is higher states of consciousness. Nitpicking over words which mean basically the same thing? Perhaps, but for me, one is a grander sense of it over the other.

    Very high, love doubt, it is your friend. Certainty is not that high, actually, but often certainty is
    a false certainty. know someone that is certain about their religion? Hmmmm? Of course you do,
    that's what I mean. Doubt is much higher than "certainty". Certainty is a fool's gold, a fool's paradise. With certainty, you are stuck, you are not moving up, with doubt, you have a fighting chance, and that's a much better place to be, in terms of spiritual growth. Even Socrates, thousands of years ago, knew this, and he said (paraphrased) "if I know one thing, it is this, I know absolutely nothing". He knew certainty was a the habitat of fools. Yeah, I talk like I know something, but really, truth be told, I don't, and I'm okay with that. Why try to solve the mystery of life? It's a mystery, just live it, celebrate it, but don't try and solve it, that's a fool's errand.

    One thing I can do, is find fault with Hubbard's many teaching, so....

    More to come,

    PS, for those of you trying to bust out, I know you've bought into OT being the "Road to Total Freedom", and if this is a false thing, then what to replace it with? I know, if you leave Scn, there's a void, and that void needs to be nourished soon, because, like someone trying to quit smoking, if you don't get a patch, or something to tide you through the rough period, you might fall back on it. Okay, I'll help you with that, more to come.

    PPS, of course, and obviously, I'm not the only ex scn around here with advice, so I'll be checking y'all out for all the good advice you have, sharing ideas, debating ideas, it will be fun, and I am looking forward to seeing what's been going on in the many years I've been out.
  2. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Hello Oscar and ...

  3. Knows

    Knows Gold Meritorious Patron

    Scientology - with its clever manipulation techniques - gets normal human beings to change their identity and behaviors so Scientology can bamboozle life savings and convince members to work for free.

    Doubt - a normal and survival state of "being" - is changed to "INSOUCIANT CERTAINTY" that everything Scientology and its management tells you is the truth and everyone else is LYING - or you won't get your eternal spiritual freedom and you are fucked forever...:whistling:

    Trust - Hubbard's emotional tone scale convinces members to TRUST Scientology always - Trust is at the TOP O THE TONE SCALE and it is "low toned" not to trust - especially Scientology, your C/S - who "knows" your condition and is constantly evaluating you to $ell you more and more and more Auditing etc...Trust your Registrar...then after you file bankruptcy and lose your home to foreclosure ( the staff will say "what did you do that for - what tone level is your "spirit"????

    So many Scientologists not only fall prey to Scientology lies - but they are now preconditioned to fall prey to many other lies - like Multi Level Marketing SCAMS - Melt that fat away with "wraps" and other stupid MLM's .
  4. hummingbird

    hummingbird Patron with Honors

    Decades ago, I read a book about a forged document that leaders of the LDS church in Utah were convinced to buy because they believed the con man when he said it was Joseph Smith's real work. It may have been Tracking the White Salamander: The story of Mark Hofmann, Murder and Forged Mormon Documents by Jerald Tanner. I still remember a quote in the book (not literally) that said that of course the elders in LDS were gullible to the con... to believe in their religion, they had to twist their minds to accept certain fables as fact anyway.

    Scn'sts are not alone. It seems like there's a whole breed of folk who just need to believe in something, regardless of irrational it may be. For me, my involvement in the cult killed any ability I ever had (no matter how trace) to just believe.
  5. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    No doubt you are right.

    I say that with certainty.

  6. phenomanon

    phenomanon Gold Meritorious Patron

    You have the formula for Doubt mixed up with Liability. Doubt does not wear a dirty rag, afaik. Other than that, you are correct about Doubt being a 'good thing'.
  7. arcxcauseblows

    arcxcauseblows Patron Meritorious

    Doubt is the best!

    That's what got me out

    Inform yourself honestly is Hubbard's doubt formula?

    For me honestly meant objectively

    So I found blogs by people that completed ot8 to see what they had to say

    and since inside the church you cannot even talk about that, which is dishonest, I found ex scientologists blogs

    Thats when I first learned what Scientology actually is, saved me decades and fortunes

    That's the irony, scientologists don't even know their own subject, they have no clue what Scientology is, they are gagged and blindfolded fools

    They are below doubt they're clueless!
  8. Oscar

    Oscar New Member

    I remember being on the RPF in Celebrity Center in the 70s, and I was put in doubt, and I think we wore the rags.
    But, my memory is foggy.
  9. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    Took me forever to post this! My sodding Firefox is broken with respect to imgur. Took me a while to figure that out.


  10. cleared cannibal

    cleared cannibal Silver Meritorious Patron

    I think this loss of ability to believe is what gets many exes in bad shape mentally and physically. For better or worse Scn did not change them as much as the finding out it was all BS and that killed their ability to dream and to pursue their dreams. This thread is kind of the opposite of the certainty one a couple of days ago. I said certainty was not all it was cracked up to be ,so in other words I said doubt could be good. The "never permit an open mind" is another way of saying don't permit doubt. That just is not who I am. I guess I have never been w/o doubt on anything or anyone. I think this saved me from Scn but it also can be disturbing in day to day life, feeling certain has more of a release effect. As with anything moderation is the key, not too much doubt or too certainty. A balance which can be hard to achieve. Maybe this is the balance they talk about in the eastern religions.
  11. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Different in the Sea Org. He's pretty much got it right.

    Before the RPF was established and El Con was still fleeing the law in a ship with his slaves, there were Flag Orders that ordered different colored rags worn by Sea Org on the right arm if you were assigned lower conditions. Then in the RPF, there were different versions of different arm rags depending on if you were in ethics or whatever or RPFs RPF.

    FO 3434 (the RPF rules) went through lots of revisions (it mostly just got worse).
  12. grey crane

    grey crane sp in training

    So many of the Hubbard documents you see mention something about money. You are being fined for this, you are responsible to pay for that, etc. For an enlightened being, he sure was obsessed with money.

  13. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    On the Doubt formula one of the steps of which is to inform oneself honestly of the stats or products of the group.... all one has to do is look around and see that there are no Clears and no OTs. Never was. Still aren't. Should be pretty simple to get out of doubt about the Cult.
  14. pineapple

    pineapple Patron with Honors

    It's simple when you're out, not so simple when you're in. In scn you're forbidden to fully use your observational powers or your logical mind. You can't see that there are no clears, because "invalidating a clear" is a HIGH CRIME. You can't let your mind go there.

    What's simple for a wog is not so simple for a scio, though they believe it's the other way around, ironically.
  15. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    yah, the last line of doubt is "not to be communicated or argue with"

    hmmm, so that means no critical discussion allowed.

    Hubbard defined critical as overts/witholds. LOL thereby bypassing Critical Thinking.

    What is argue, but the same as critical Thinking,

  16. Jump

    Jump Operating teatime

    Yep it's about cognitive dissonance. This is when your attitudes, beliefs and behaviours are not in agreement and accord. It's actually a painful situation.

    Leon Festinger a psychologist did big studies about this in 1957. He looked at the members of a cult that believed the world would end .. but it didn't end.

    To deal with the dissonance, some members changed their belief in realising they had been fooled and moved on. Others made different adjustments like the world did end but in a spiritual plane, or that it didn't end because of faithlessnes....

    Adjustment of beliefs or behaviours can be personally disadvantageous, but overall be less painful to experience. In this case, they might rather give away all their money rather than believe the scio's are not wonderful and helpful people following a respected guru.

    The friend can also be in a painful dissonance watching someone give their savings away and not wanting to think they could be duped like that .. and not being able to do a thing about it.
  17. Oscar

    Oscar New Member

    Doubt is still your friend :)
  18. Hypatia

    Hypatia Pagan

    Hubbard redefined things in such a way as to twist them. "Reasonable" is another.
  19. phenomanon

    phenomanon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Were you there 76, 77?
    Actually, I do recall seeing Staff with colored rags on their arms.
    I'm an old oldtimer from the 50s.
    You think your memory is foggy? Honey, you have no idea!
  20. Gib

    Gib Crusader

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