ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

[Emma]

Recently I have had reason to question the easy going stance on ESMB to the Freezone.

I have read certain threads that concern me, have received a number of PMs from concerned members and visited a FZ forum and recieved an interesting "welcome".

Originally I decided that FZers were welcome here because fundamentally they are Ex Scientologists. Now I have some reasons to be concerned about this apparent "affiliation" with the FZ and a perception that ESMB is a recruiting ground for and/or a free advertising venue to a larger audience for the FZ.

I haven't made any decision regarding this as yet and I'm looking for some feedback. Please don't get hysterical about this. I'm really after some thought out responses.

I want to know what you all think.

 

[Alanzo]

I think a person has a fundamental right to live and believe however and whatever they want.

I think they have a right to be a Churchie, or a freezoner, or a "materialist", or a psychiatrist.

They just have to have some kind of logically consistent rationale, be able to communicate it in something other than slogans and bumper stickers and anti-psych spam, and they should be willing to listen and speak on all the topics that come their way.

If they can do all that, I don't care what they do or believe.

And I welcome them to compete in the "marketplace of ideas" along with everyone else.

 

[Emma]

I think a person has a fundamental right to live and believe however and whatever they want.

I think they have a right to be a Churchie, or a freezoner, or a "materialist", or a psychiatrist.

They just have to have some kind of logically consistent rationale, be able to communicate it in something other than slogans and bumper stickers and anti-psych spam, and they should be willing to listen and speak on all the topics that come their way.

If they can do all that, I don't care what they do or believe.

I agree with all that Alanzo, but it doesn't really answer my question.

I'm not suggesting that people can't do or practise anything they wish to, but I am questioning the growing concern that ESMB is seen by some members of the FZ as a recruitment pool for the FZ. Is it right that we allow this to go on, or is it better just to allow any and all and to watch the chips fall as they will?

If we have a "no stance" stance on the FZ, then that precludes a positive as well as negative stance.

Is it fair to allow recruiters to prey on vulnerable newly out exes? Is this actually happening? Is it any of our business?

These are the issues I want thrashed out.

 

[Pitbull]

Yes, I do see a potential concern. Some ex members have a vehement, rabid and justifiable dislike for anything whatsoever to do with Scientology or "Scientology Inspired" things.

And conversely, some Freezoners could just as easily be considered as insular crackpots.

But for the most part its all well meaning folks who still see a major issue with the church.

I personally feel that the best way to communicate to those "inside" and the fastest way to deal with the church is to support efforts for those who want some of the things Scientology has to offer.

If those trapped inside really felt there was an alternative, many if not most would welcome the total change in management. Would welcome full disclosure. Would welcome the elimination of secrecy, disconnection, bait and switch. Or languishing for years with no real help.

Once Scientology was seen for what it really is, then those who want some basic auditing could get it. And they wouldn't have to have new goals foisted on them. Plus, most of the "OT level" Bullcrap would be seen as nonsense, and we could get a clearer picture of the broader universe, the past, and how to achieve actual greater spiritual awareness.

 

[Good twin]

Emma, I'll be happy to give you my thoughts on this.
When I first decided to leave the church, I thought I might find a place in the freezone. This was comforting to me. I'm not really leaning in that direction any more. However, that option made it easier to cope with the loss of the experience. It's good to know that for anyone who still really wants the bridge, but not the church, there are options.
I never thought of this forum as a place to contact freezone orgs or practitioners. They have their own sites. The fact that there are freezoners and Indies here doesn't bother me. I feel we all have something to say and I am interested in what others have to say.
In the short time I've been here I have seen people evolve from one viewpoint to another and the transformation is inspiring. I appreciate the fact that moderation here is not heavy handed. We are big boys and girls and are here to learn how to make up our own minds. For many of us that is a new experience. We do tend to evaluate for each other from time to time. We also offer each other help. We have the option of accepting what is offered or moving on to something else. When the freezone is offered as a possible solution. That is all it is. There are other options.
While I might not connect up or get involved with any freezone practitioner, I do appreciate being able to find out what they believe and what they are doing. If you don't want to hear what they have to say, you can block them. I vote for non censorship. That is why I am here.

 

[Alanzo]

If we create an environment where anyone can say anything to anyone, then Freezoners can be attacked and picked apart for their ideas and practices, and exposed so that everyone can see what they are up to: if they are.

I do not think that the only stance on Scientology should be militantly anti. That was pretty much the only choice we had when we were first getting out: If you were an EX - then you were anti.

I don't care what other boards think of the position of ESMB. As many people have shown, you can have "anti" cults, too, where no postive response, or even civility, is allowed (i.e. ARS).

The only answer is to allow ALL points of view, to not restrict the flow of ANY information, and to not try to control anyone - for once.

After the cult, it's real good to just let people be who they are.

 

[Good twin]

If we create an environment where anyone can say anything to anyone, then Freezoners can be attacked and picked apart for their ideas and practices, and exposed so that everyone can see what they are up to: if they are.

I do not think that the only stance on Scientology should be militantly anti. That was pretty much the only choice we had when we were first getting out: If you were an EX - then you were anti.

I don't care what other boards think of the position of ESMB. As many people have shown, you can have "anti" cults, too, where no postive response, or even civility, is allowed (i.e. ARS).

The only answer is to allow ALL points of view, to not restrict the flow of ANY information, and to not try to control anyone - for once.

After the cult, it's real good to just let people be who they are.

Exactly!

 

[Alanzo]

Recently I have had reason to question the easy going stance on ESMB to the Freezone.

I have read certain threads that concern me, have received a number of PMs from concerned members and visited a FZ forum and recieved an interesting "welcome".

What happened, exactly?

What threads concern you, and why?

What types of concerns have others PMed you about?

Let's hear it.

 

[Kathy (ImOut)]

Here's my input, Emma. For the first year I was out, I was involved with the Freezone/Ron's Org. I needed it. I couldn't stand that thought of not having anymore Bridge just because I got tired of the CofS.

Since being on this board, I've come to the realization that I don't want to be involved with the Freezone/Ron's Org. The only influence the board was to me in that decision was data from some that knew LRH in the late 50s. My recall isn't so great on that time.

And I'd already been away from the Freezone/Ron's Org for several months before I joined this board. I just finalized my decision with some very helpful threads on this board. (I still wish that this board had started a year earlier - when I was first getting out of the CofS. Maybe I would have never gotten involved with the Freezone/Ron's Org. :confused2: )

On this board when the Freezoners start to push the Freezone, I just don't read those posts. But I think others have a right to the information if they so choose to read those posts. In some aspects, being involved in the Freezone/Ron's Org did help me that first year I was out.

I'm not for "banning" or otherwise the Freezoners or any other independent from posting their thoughts or their beliefs. I have the chose to read or not read. That is what I really like about this board - freedom to choose what threads I want to be involved with or even just look at. And maybe other newly outs can benefit from the other groups and this board helps them make that decision.

As we all know, leaving wasn't so easy. A bit of help or a lot of help in reading the posts here is truly quite beneficial - even if you may not agree or even understand the post.

 

[Pixie]

Well Emma, if you have been reading any past posts of mine regarding my viewpoints on the free zone, then you may possibly have already come to the conclusion that I am not happy about the way in which they communicate. I agree with Alanzo in that everyone has a right to an opinion and indeed a belief, however, in my own experience, and in my own short time on this board, I have found that the freezone is openly and blatently shoved down the throats of others, particularly the newbies. Not too many people coming to a form like this are happy to be in any way shape or form reminded of the cult, and the perpetual advertising for it is just yet another sickener.

I have had several run ins with one freezoner in particular as you may also be aware, and I have found this persons responses to me more than insidious, non sequeter, rude in the extreme, irresponsible and have experienced coninuous smarmy and sarcastic remarks along with snide undertones.

If a freezoner is indeed what he maintains he is, then one would presume that they would act in a more professional manner, in fact I was on the board only two days when I was attacked by a freezoner, this left me wanting to leave the board there and then and it left me in a state of tears and trauma for almost a week. Had it not been for another board member (Lionheart) jumping to my defence, it's a very strong possibility I would not be here now.

It took me personally seven months to post on this board from the first day of my registration, not everyone is on a balanced level when they first arrive here, and being shot down and accused of something that didn't even make any sense, and apologies demanded in such arrogant tones, is in my mind disgusting. If this was just a 'personality clash' then I would say nothing about it, but I do sincerely believe and feel that the freezoners on this board are indeed using it as a recruiting pool. The know it all attitude is never too far from the equation either which naturally reminds one of where they have just come from and are struggling hard to get out of mind wise.

And just to state the very obvious here, the 'freezone' does use $cilon tech, and that is that, so what the freezone is doing here in the first place is beyond me, for me, going into the freezone is the same as moving out from the frying pan into the fire, it's still the most introverting thing a person can do to themselves and solves nothing in the long term.

If the freezone are to stay on this board, I feel there ought to be certain 'rules' that they would have to abide by for the sake of other's sanity, and these rules would have to be enforced, either that, as I have said before, they get their own site, and if indeed anyone does wish to use their services, then they can do so at their own peril, and not perhaps mix up the purpose of ESMB as another 'link' back into the madness that is the $cilon 'tech'. This is an EX scientologist message board, and for me personaly, the 'freezone' are indeed, on some level, still very much 'scientologists'.

This is my opinion, and I have kept it as unhysterical as I could muster. I hope that this helps.

 

[Good twin]

If you censor Freezone practitioners, what about Indies? What about anyone who gives nutritional advice? What about Paul?
OMG Emma, I never got the idea that you were here to assist these guys expand their practices. But gee, why not allow them to talk about it. If Terrill and Alan and Mike and Paul and all these guys weren't here, my experience would not have been as powerful. I was a Scientologist for 32 years. I want to know what happened to the old auditors and the old mission holders and every stuff!
If you don't want to know, just move on!!!! PLEEEZE Emma. Let us pick and choose our own counseling or lack of, not dictate what is the correct way to exit the church.
GT

 

[GoButtonIsBlowButton]

Free speech...

I don't get it. The vast number of regulars here have all the cast pretty well figured out, and we interact with surprising civility (thank you Emma dahling!).

Frankly, I don't see that there's a problem, but do see that some feathers are ruffled when some people are speaking.

I'd concentrate on making this a "no-rumor zone". The "Beghe's-been-fixed" and the "RPF'ers-doing-Freewinds-reno" come immediately to mind. Those who make such statements need to offer proof as they make the claim, or not make it at all.

My 2 pence.

 

[Fancy]

She ran into LR like most do in the freezone.

Took me a while to get use to LR myself and we have come to an understanding. I perfer someone being overt with their thoughts over being covert. Chris too can be tough. Some I think still has some church thinking but most in the freezone has let that go.

Emma got some good responses there as well.

One thing for sure some in the freezone don't like a lot of critic stuff. I just let that be. The critics don't like the Scien stuff. I call that being human for choosing what one wants and what one does not want.

I came on this forum because it had less critical stuff but if it becomes full critical then I suppose I will not be here so much.

Barb

 

[British Mom]

Hi Emma,

I agree with what your saying. When I came out I still believed in the tech, but after, a sort of mini deprogramming (stopped using the terms & read loads of stuff on the internet) then I saw Scientology for what it really is, a cult.

A couple of years ago, I met up with an ex scientologist, who was running a rons org, I went along, mainly to see old friends & they tried to handle me, I was out like a shot, no Thank you, never again. I am on my own now, but I am free.

This website has really helped me, mainly because, when I read stuff I can see that other people feel like me & I then dont feel so alone.

I was a very spiritual person before Scn & lost it, now I have got that back & my freedom, if I mess things up, its all down to me now. Thanks for putting this site up, for people like me.

 

[Emma]

What happened, exactly?

What threads concern you, and why?

What types of concerns have others PMed you about?

Let's hear it.

The FZ forum episode was interesting. I saw some negative stuff about ESMB being "full of lies and messed up cases" and so I replied. I got a mixed reaction but the overriding one was "don't come here and cause trouble or bring your entheta viewpoints". One poster even asked me to leave the forum. I admit I did start the fight by saying that the "messed up cases" were caused by "your beloved church". I also asked the question as to "what lies?" They didn't like it.

I have since found out that this particular forum is a hard line LRH/CoS purest forum that doesn't allow dissent.

To be fair I was backed up by Mark Baker & Terril and welcomed by one or two members.

What did disturb me was the seeming hypocrisy in that some members of that board view ESMB as a potential recruitment pool, yet others wouldn't allow me to post on their board unless I held the "party line" of no entheta. In short, I felt used.

The thread that concerns me the most is the recently retired "L correction" thread. I don't want to rehash that thread AT ALL. I just want to say that I'm absolutely disgusted that this persons privacy has been violated, and by the auditor no less. I'm not sure that I want any promotion of a group who will do that kind of thing just to brag or use the PC's status to boost his business.

As for PMs, well they are private. Lets just say that I do get a lot of complaints about FZ advertising. A lot of exes don't want to be exposed to more recruiting or advertising. They want a break from it, not to come here and be exposed to more of it.

So this is my dilemma. Free speech and no control over content or .....well......whatever the alternative is.

 

[Alanzo]

Well Emma, if you have been reading any past posts of mine regarding my viewpoints on the free zone, then you may possibly have already come to the conclusion that I am not happy about the way in which they communicate. I agree with Alanzo in that everyone has a right to an opinion and indeed a belief, however, in my own experience, and in my own short time on this board, I have found that the freezone is openly and blatently shoved down the throats of others, particularly the newbies. Not too many people coming to a form like this are happy to be in any way shape or form reminded of the cult, and the perpetual advertising for it is just yet another sickener.

I have had several run ins with one freezoner in particular as you may also be aware, and I have found this persons responses to me more than insidious, non sequeter, rude in the extreme, irresponsible and have experienced coninuous smarmy and sarcastic remarks along with snide undertones.

If a freezoner is indeed what he maintains he is, then one would presume that they would act in a more professional manner, in fact I was on the board only two days when I was attacked by a freezoner, this left me wanting to leave the board there and then and it left me in a state of tears and trauma for almost a week. Had it not been for another board member (Lionheart) jumping to my defence, it's a very strong possibility I would not be here now.

It took me personally seven months to post on this board from the first day of my registration, not everyone is on a balanced level when they first arrive here, and being shot down and accused of something that didn't even make any sense, and apologies demanded in such arrogant tones, is in my mind disgusting. If this was just a 'personality clash' then I would say nothing about it, but I do sincerely believe and feel that the freezoners on this board are indeed using it as a recruiting pool. The know it all attitude is never too far from the equation either which naturally reminds one of where they have just come from and are struggling hard to get out of mind wise.

And just to state the very obvious here, the 'freezone' does use $cilon tech, and that is that, so what the freezone is doing here in the first place is beyond me, for me, going into the freezone is the same as moving out from the frying pan into the fire, it's still the most introverting thing a person can do to themselves and solves nothing in the long term.

If the freezone are to stay on this board, I feel there ought to be certain 'rules' that they would have to abide by for the sake of other's sanity, and these rules would have to be enforced, either that, as I have said before, they get their own site, and if indeed anyone does wish to use their services, then they can do so at their own peril, and not perhaps mix up the purpose of ESMB as another 'link' back into the madness that is the $cilon 'tech'. This is an EX scientologist message board, and for me personaly, the 'freezone' are indeed, on some level, still very much 'scientologists'.

This is my opinion, and I have kept it as unhysterical as I could muster. I hope that this helps.

I agree with your opinion about the insidous and introverting nature of many freezone practices, Pixie.

And I believe that you have performed an important role here on ESMB in speaking out against them.

But the answer to this, in my opinion, can never be to "ban" the freezone from this board. That is just more Scientology - and the very worst kind of it, too.

No. It's best to let them hang themselves.

Also, there is another important point to be made. When you get out of Scientology, you often "throw the baby out with the bathwater". A frequent causality, lying out there on the lawn, is your own reach for spirituality and your own spiritual self.

I went through a period where I needed to try other "freezone" type services. I tried a couple. And for me, going through that phase, and allowing myself to again do "auditing type things" was very good for me. It reminded me how much I loved auditing, and why some auditing is actually non-dangerous. To me, this is a vital step in being able to walk away from Scientology with all your valuables intact.

People definitely go through phases when coming out of the cult.

We should let them.

 

[Pixie]

If you censor Freezone practitioners, what about Indies? What about anyone who gives nutritional advice? What about Paul?
OMG Emma, I never got the idea that you were here to assist these guys expand their practices. But gee, why not allow them to talk about it. If Terrill and Alan and Mike and Paul and all these guys weren't here, my experience would not have been as powerful. I was a Scientologist for 32 years. I want to know what happened to the old auditors and the old mission holders and every stuff!
If you don't want to know, just move on!!!! PLEEEZE Emma. Let us pick and choose our own counseling or lack of, not dictate what is the correct way to exit the church.
GT

If you need to know what happened to all your old auditors you could find them on thier own site. As I said, I'm the first one to admit I do not like censoring of any kind, however, it's the attitude we are talking about, some of the answers to newbies posts are all about recruitment, perhaps you don't notice this because you were in the freezone yourself, but you have to acknowledge that there have been advertisments in the past in bright glaring blue on certain people's sig lines, if this is not using another's site for one's own gains then I don't know what is.

 

[Emma]

If you censor Freezone practitioners, what about Indies? What about anyone who gives nutritional advice? What about Paul?
OMG Emma, I never got the idea that you were here to assist these guys expand their practices. But gee, why not allow them to talk about it. If Terrill and Alan and Mike and Paul and all these guys weren't here, my experience would not have been as powerful. I was a Scientologist for 32 years. I want to know what happened to the old auditors and the old mission holders and every stuff!
If you don't want to know, just move on!!!! PLEEEZE Emma. Let us pick and choose our own counseling or lack of, not dictate what is the correct way to exit the church.
GT

Don't panic!!

I'm not going to do anything radical. I just felt that there was this issue brewing and it came to a head yesterday and I wanted to air it.

It's not a new area for discussion, but since it was last discussed the board has grown a lot and there are newer viewpoints that should be considered.

As you can see already, it's quite a hot topic. I don't want this swept under the carpet. Lets talk about it, air grievences and come to a better understanding. At least that is my hope.

 

[Headend]

Hi! Em & everyone

Just let them go, they happily show there true value to anyone with any intelligence.

Pixie glad to hear that LH is still defending the realm & inserting some often needed sanity.

And no I'm not back just a quick visit

 

[Emma]

Hi! Em & everyone

Just let them go, they happily show there true value to anyone with any intelligence.

Pixie glad to hear that LH is still defending the realm & inserting some often needed sanity.

And no I'm not back just a quick visit

Hello stranger!

I tried calling you.

Did you know Vinny is an Idenics practitioner now?