Is Scientology Fascism?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Mimsey Borogrove, Oct 4, 2018.

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  1. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    I don't know where Hubbard said that but I'll take your word for it. It's not exactly an original thought though is it? The human race seems to have developed some sort of 'consumer society' from day one, what with swapping goods and services, and bartering etc. Personally, I couldn't give a flying f**k what Hubbard said since most of what he said has been discredited, so why in two consecutive posts you've reminded us of something he said as thought it's important, baffles me quite honestly.
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  2. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Cosmic Recyclable

    Plus it's my recollection that when Hubbard advocated a Benevolent Dictatorship to replace the Democracy he so disdained it was he that he saw as the Benevolent Dictator and we soon were to learn what kind of dictatorship he would have run - a purely evil fascist dictatorship with no pretenses otherwise once he got into the catbird seat.
    Goldfinger would have looked like a kid with a paper route compared to the cash guzzling bureaucracy he would have put together with his org board running the world.
    And as he proved inept at running anything, the inmates would have soon been running the asylum as was and is the case in Scientology.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  3. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Just some thoughts as I'm reading this:

    The basic problem with government is it always morphs toward being more authoritarian, until there is an upheaval that corrects. The Founding Fathers were well aware of the history of Rome and the cycles of civilization. The creation of the constitution was such an upheaval and that is why it is specifically designed to resist authoritarianism by creating a balance of power and decentralization. And this is why they specifically did NOT create a pure democracy or European type parliament. They created a constitutional republic.

    Self-abnegation = The first thing you do when you sign Scientology contracts and waivers.

    Degraded novels = Mission Earth

    I believe LRH used the exact term "benevolent dictator" and not "monarchy" when describing the best form of government. But I have little doubt that if LRH came from royalty he would have gone with "monarchy".

    LRH did place much emphasis on the importance of preserving Scientology with effective sane succession but like everything else...he lied. Doh!

    Yes, LRH was OCD about perfecting Scientology as a con whereas DM is OCD about perfecting other things because he doesn't understand Scientology as mind control and must resort to crude force. Just my opinion, I think Scientology was designed by and for OCD people. Who else would get so enmeshed in all it's intricate nuttiness to spend decades in it? I say this with no disrespect to OCD people. It just seems pretty self-evident to me.

    I don't see much difference in Scientology as a subject over time. It was always a constantly changing group behavioral control "technology" and self-conflicting going from Dianetics to Scientology to BT/Demonology. True, the emphasis on it's use has changed from the technology itself to donations and monument building but even LRH started that ball rolling with the Safe Environment Fund so even there it is still "Scientology".

    I would suggest that Scientology's ultimate goal was always KSW. The KSW policy and all the other utterances comprising fundamentalism define Scientology more than Scientology defines KSW. If Scientology was just a means to establish fundamentalism and the fundamentalism hasn't changed then Scientology hasn't changed and any changes made by Hubbard or DM become sanctioned and incorporated into the fundamentalism under KSW. In other words, whoever is in control can do whatever the hell they want and that is still Scientology.

    As for the "club atmosphere" from an earlier friendlier period, I can say that I observed this in missions and orgs that were not under heavy Sea Org control but anything remotely looking like dilettantism or purely socializing was at best only begrudgingly tolerated in the Sea Org and since the Sea Org was the ultimate expression of organized Scientology I think we can assume that LRH always intended to phase out any club atmosphere in favor of Sea Org authoritarianism. The club was always on borrowed time.

    I completely agree, LRH wore a velvet glove over his iron fist whereas DM does not and to those of us who saw his work up close it was a very thin, scratchy and tattered glove at that. But I contend that if LRH felt he had the freedom to dispense with the glove he immediately would have. The program just needed a little more time.

    I don't understand why people continue to make some distinction between LRH and Miscavige's operating procedure by referring to some earlier gentler romanticized time period under LRH's direction. This is only illustrative of a person's respective experience, relationship and knowledge of things at the time. All of LRH's ultimate ambitions were already evident a long time ago. The GO was created in 1966. Just what do we really think Mary Sue and Jane were up to all that time? It's not like he just woke up one morning and decided to create his own black ops division.

    In 1966 and 1967 Hubbard created a secret intelligence-gathering and psycho-terrorism unit within the church. This secret part of Scientology became a “cult within a cult” answerable only to Hubbard. In its first embodiment, this secret unit was called the Guardian’s Office.
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  4. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    It relates to the op - is scientology fascist? - and I was exploring other aspects of the OP. Sorry. Mimsey
  5. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Big Blue - very good post - I dunno, when I was on staff and on the bridge in the late 60's through the early 80's, I was rarely in their cross hairs, and I had good comradery with the people I was involved with - however that seemed to wane. For instance - the ASHO /F briefing course under Chris Montgomery things were very chummy though there was an emphasis on getting the tech right. Then management started fucking with the way she was running the BC and ended up canning her. Now they don't bother to deliver it.

    Maybe I am romanticizing it and it wasn't ever all that good. As I write this I am starting to remember my various skirmishes with ethics I had forgotten about. But what does stand out - in those days, you couldn't buy yourself out of an ethics condition by buying books or making a donation, I never signed a liability petition for a fellow public that had gotten a w/h off in session about masturbation. It definitely verved around the time the price increases began.

  6. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Well said.

    "...the corruption of the tech..."

    The raison d'etre of the Sea Org was to maintain the integrity of the tech. What has occurred is the opposite.

    Hubbard often advocates the true and proper ideals of the work and those ideals are far from fascistic. Although an organization must be hierarchal to operate Hubbard did in fact direct the spirit of it should be collegial.

    He also predicted in fairly great detail what the Miscvage regime has done and gave good prescriptions for addressing it.

    Along with a superb rallying cry: "Auditors Unite! You have nothing to lose but your certs."
  7. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Patron with Honors

    For what it's worth, from Dr. Lawrence Britt's fourteen point definition of Fascism, the first four points sort of stand out. I see the idea of these points, altered in order to fit the organization as an organization which is really more or less the government of scn:

    Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
    Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

    Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
    Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

    Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
    The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

    Supremacy of the Military
    Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
  8. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    In 1977 a dirty needle got you instantly routed to the RPF in PAC by Wayne Marple's LRH mission. I believe prior to this he was over Estates at La Quinta just two hours away where LRH was hiding. Mark and Liz Ingber were over the projects the RPF worked on taking orders directly from LRH. Captain Bill would take over after Wayne was tossed under the bus then he too would be tossed under the bus. Miscavige is already Messenger on Duty. Jesse is locked in a room for 3 months until he agrees to go on the RPF. There is an RPF's RPF and for a while even an RPF's RPF's RPF locked in a cyclone fence utility room in the basement sleeping on old thin military mattresses on the concrete floor. The RPF lived in the morgue before it got too large eventually reaching up to 170 people, larger than any PAC org. A girl was locked up on baby watch in the basement. The FBI would raid that year and the GO would be put in the dog house and the CMO would later take over much more direct management. LRH piloted all this long before on the ships and with the chain locker. He was two hours away, getting daily reports with regular CMO communication and logistical runs to the complex. It's inconceivable that he was not fully aware of what was going on.

    It's silly that we keep having this conversation about LRH vs Miscavige and the good ol days vs now and is Scientology fundamentally bad or good. Everything we know was set in motion directly and specifically by LRH in his lifetime. If the Scientology organization thought this was all so great then why not give tours to the local community and public Scientologists of people living in the basement of Big Blue in 1977? Is that what it takes for Scientologists or ex-Scientologists to understand the nature of Scientology? They have to see it themselves? Haven't there been enough corroborating stories to spell it all out?

    We were conned. It's a cult. LRH was a clever sociopath.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  9. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    The problem with any system is that things go out of control if there is no negative feedback mechanism to correct bad behavior.

    With Scientology, Hubbard was very diligent at removing any such negative feedback mechanisms. Openly criticizing Scientology was made a Suppressive Act. Even reading about criticism would get you into Ethics trouble.

    When the US was founded, the put in a Bill of Rights to ensure that the government could not disable the feedback mechanisms. The First Amendment says the government may not punish criticism of the system. The Second Amendment puts a limit on government's ability to use force against its own people. And so on.
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  10. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Cosmic Recyclable

    Are you talking about Bush/Cheney?
  11. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Hum. I knew both Wayne and Mark somewhat - when I was on course at NYO the "Flying Ruds" HCOB had just been released - Wayne came into the academy and set up a black board and 'splained it to the students. I was told by someone - to think of it as being written by someone who's native language wasn't English. It suddenly became perfectly clear. I met Mark at AOLA on Westlake or the SO house a few blocks away or something - he was nice enough but I guess that didn't last.

    Enthetan - you be right. I always thought it odd Qual was touted as the missing cog in inter galactic empires (say what? As if they didn't have a quality control division. Sheesh.) and yet he made it toothless, in that it couldn't fix anything that wasn't covered in tech or policy. Kinda dog chasing it's tail proposition.

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  12. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Well, we're dating ourselves aren't we? Actually I remember Mark as being kind of quiet and hanging back also. So many of these people are deceased now. Under different circumstances any of these people could have been...very different people.

    Sounds like you are describing the Beacon Ave. house. I think they sold it in 77.
  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yes Dotey...

    CoS can be jacketed to some fairly high degree on these four points.


    Hubbard with scriptural brevity and tir-a-l'arc accuracy put fascism in it's place on the COHE

    Anyone recall what place it was put in?
  14. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

  15. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

  16. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    Wasn't communism 1.1?
    I've always thought of fascism as masculine tyranny and communism as feminine tyranny.
  17. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    or effeminate treachery/tyranny
  18. Francois Tremblay

    Francois Tremblay Patron with Honors

    What? Political systems don't have genitals. If you're talking about gender stereotypes, well, those still don't really relate to political theories at all. There are, to quote our esteemed president (hah!), "good people on both sides." Personalities of those who follow them doesn't have any bearing on the theory itself. You can be a stereotypical masculine asshole and follow a egalitarian political ideology, and vice-versa.
  19. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yes and the theory itself places fascism belowthe Mendoza Line on the Tone Scale.

    And back in the day the people I knew weren't fascist...

    Except for some of the people who showed up from the Apollo...


    Just by the way...

    Is known as "The lowest point on the Tone Scale where anything ever gets done"