Mark V vs Mark VII

Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by Tom of Helatrobus, Dec 4, 2008.

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  1. Tom of Helatrobus

    Tom of Helatrobus Patron Meritorious

    I just bought a Mark V meter and some materials from a local ex-Scientologist for about $100. I guess my main motivation, besides curiosity is to train myself and others in giving false reads. If I can get a F/N at will, then I think that's pretty cool - I'm a nerd.

    Also I might want to meter check my son to see if he's lieing to me. That way he can grow up to be an ex-ex-Scientology kid. Just kidding, but I'm sure I'll be tempted.

    Originally I wanted a Mark VI or higher. I wanted the more post modern plastic case. It was too pricey thought. I wasn't willing to spend over $200. But now that I've got the Mark V, I've taken a liking to the walnut wood box and the mechanical TA counter - very charming.

    After looking through many web pages on the electronic aspects of the e-meter, I can't see a substancial difference between a Mark V and Mark VII. They really use the same essential components. To anyone who knows, is there a real difference between the models? Is there any reason to have a Mark VII instead of a Mark V? Is there any difference in functionality?

    Also, the guy I bought the meter from told me the meter has been sitting in his basement for years. It is currently plugged in and charging as I type, but if the battery doesn't hold the charge, then I'm going to have to replace the battery (- I saw a cool web site with instructions on this). So how often does that battery need to be replaced? Does anyone know how long those batteries last on the shelf?

    Also, any ideas on where to get new cans - besides the supermarket!

  2. Corsa

    Corsa Patron with Honors

    Hej that's cool, a Mark V!:coolwink:
    I used to have two of those, but lost them somewhere long ago.

    As for the cans: We used to go and buy canned asparagus in some supermarket, then eat the asparagus and use the cans. Worked perfectly :yes:
    Weren't there cans included in the case?
    Suppose you could buy some in an Org's bookstore, if you don't like asparagus so much.

    I remember those meters had to be charged quite frequently, therefor I usually had two, one on the charging lead, the other one I audited with.

    I also remember there was a small "resistance-thing" (Jesus, my English! Where is it?) in the case, with which one could calibrate the meter, and that had to be done on a certain day.
  3. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Buying cans at an org would cost more than you paid for the meter, I believe, merely in terms of cash and not counting the cost in stress and hassle. Maybe you can get some in the FZ.

    If buying at a supermarket, take a small magnet along with you and try out various cans to see if they are steel. VERY few cans in the supermarket are steel. The times I have looked there for some, either for an e-meter or for my food replicator, I had a real hard time finding ANY at all.

    A VII is more sensitive than a V, and the needle is lighter too. How much difference it makes in real life, others could say better than me.

    Calibrating on a certain day? Dunno what is being referred to here. Assume it's a joke.

  4. ULRC/S

    ULRC/S Patron with Honors

    Electronically, the MK5, VI and VII are nearly the same once the extra gizmos are removed. If you can audit, they all work the same.

    Nickel-Cadium batteries as used in a Mk 5 last about ten years, if you are lucky. When they are dead they will not hold a charge, or even accept one, and often have corrosion leaking out of the seals in their metal case which can run up inside the connecting the wires and even onto the circuit board.

    Changing the battery is not easy as it's a special one, with a "tap" after one cell. Unless you are also an electronics nerd, I suggest you send it to a (non church) e-meter repair guy for the job to be done.

    I'm in Europe so the shipping and customs hassles may not be worth it, but someone here must know someone closer to you.

    Regards, Allen
  5. Corsa

    Corsa Patron with Honors

    Hi Paul!

    For the calibrating: It was "after a certain amount of auditing hours" I remember now. No joke!

    Cans: We knew exactly which brand of asparagus we had to take in order to have cans that worked.
    They were in a supermarket down in EG, might have been Woolworth. The same we bought the Corn Flakes and the toast for breakfast.

    Was an awful long time ago :coolwink:
    Possibly nowadays cans are not so useful anylonger :bigcry:
  6. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Got it re the calibration.

    I remember once getting asparagus cans that worked great. But the last time I checked, the ones I could find weren't steel.

  7. teadreamer

    teadreamer Patron

    Does anyone know who can service and calibrate a Mk V in Britain ?
  8. GoNuclear

    GoNuclear Gold Meritorious Patron

    Like everything else that is Cof$, even the latest, never released Mk 8 e-meter is obsolete due to the KSW mentality that refuses to allow innovation of any sort. Meanwhile, outside of the Cof$ on the web, there are plans available to build a "c-meter" which is all electronic and is designed to be tossed into a computer in an expansion card slot. Taking that a step further, there is no reason that the device couldn't be built as USB 2 or USB 3 device. Taking it further still, instead of cans for electrodes, the device can be worn via wrist strap and be wireless to the computer via bluetooth device plugged into the USB port. Going over to a computer for display purposes allows for other changes ... various display enhancements, the computer would log T/A changes, both the metering as well as audio and video of the session could be recorded, there is the possibility of remote auditing over the web, etc. That is all within just the functionality of an e-meter mated to a computer, but there is more.

    The e-meter is essentially a wheatstone bridge circuit that measures resistance, galvanic skin resistance in particular. There are aspects of the spirit/mind/body connections that cause minor changes in that parameter depending upon what the individual is busy looking at in his mind, true enough. But galvanic skin resistance is only one parameter. Even lie detectors, which are old and relatively crude devices, measure a lot more than that. There are brainwaves, pulse, blood pressure, and various changes to facial muscles that can be monitored as well. And its not like these are useless parameters to monitor ... its just that nobody within the Cof$ or independent/freezone has bothered to conduct a study, at least not one that I am aware of.

    Bottom line ... the rest of the world has moved forward. If IQ enhancement is what you are looking for, there are all manner of brain games and perception exercises available on the web and for generally well less than 10% of the cost of a single expensive of professional auditing. For about 50 or so dollars, you can get games that directly interface brainwave output to a computer. I saw a few advertised at Best Buy before Christmas. Now is as good a time as any to get with the times.

  9. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I hadn't thought of a bluetooth connection between the electrodes and the meter. Although my choice would be to stay with wired unless I had a *very* good assurance that there were not spurious signals showing on the display.

    This article by David St Lawrence on my iCans remote auditing blog, Testing New Meter Electrodes, includes several photographs of stick-on electrodes, a meter smaller than a cigarette packet that plugs into a USB port, and a highly versatile display. David says that he does almost all of his metering from the memory trace (last 30 or 60 seconds) and not the needle itself. He still notes instant reads, of course.

    Analogue meters are so, well, last-century dood.


  10. Infinite

    Infinite Crusader


    And don't forget . . .

  11. GoNuclear

    GoNuclear Gold Meritorious Patron

    Going with the C-Meter sidesteps any and all requirements for that silly phuggen warning, should the Cof$ adopt it, being that it is another device entirely.

  12. Infinite

    Infinite Crusader

    I guess its a matter of integrity for the operators of the machine and what it is they say the readings represent.
  13. kate8024

    kate8024 -deleted-

    I've actually been thinking about a project like this as well - I am a software engineer with a little EE background and I think it should be possible to make little usb thingy with velcro finger straps for about $50 and software which not only shows the 'needle' but actually interprets the reads and provides some level of interaction (eg saying like "I got a read on that is there anything more there?") and recording your responses with the TA reads in case you want to go back and look at it later. I also have a MindSet EEG headset (and the SDK for it) and want to eventually look into how it could be integrated with the wheatstone bridge during the auditing process. Too bad I don't have unlimited free time lol
  14. kate8024

    kate8024 -deleted-

    Back to the original topic, check out a company called TechLibrary thats where I got my mark V and the battery in it works great, I guess they replaced it - my guess is they do repair work on them as well. The only way I know to get in touch with them is via ebay They probably also have cans, they mention they have a lot of stuff not listed on ebay and you should ask if there is something you need that they don't have listed.
  15. teadreamer

    teadreamer Patron

    Thanks Kate. I do know about TechLibary and will see what they can do. As I am in England postage there and back may not be worthwhile. I will check out Ability Meters and Nick Warren in England as well. :)
  16. beltway

    beltway Bone Idle

    First post! Sorry if I'm resurrecting a dead thread... I'm picking up a Mk.V and hoped someone might be able to comment on a question...

    By way of intro, I've become more and more interested in the 'clearing' tech ripped off by ElWrong from psychoanalysis research, Korzybski, et. al. and particularly after (quite sheepishly) trying Paul Adams' "Rub and Yawn" technique and finding myself grinning like an idiot and quite a bit less bugged by the issue I'd dealt with afterward. :biggrin:
    Thanks BTW, Mr. Adams. :hattip:

    Anyway, I read most of, "Excalibur Revisited", by Geoffrey Filbert and came across the following in the appendix section, "The Last Ditch".

    My question: Is this Mk.V > Mk.VI/VII recognized by anyone else? I've done quite a bit of reading on GSR meters/E-Meters and haven't seen anyone else talking on it. Obviously Co$ pushes their 'official' gear to ensure Li'l Napoleon can keep up with his movie-star friend#s# in the glamourous lifestyle of the Rich and Insane, so I know there's not going to be any connection whatsoever between what works best and what Scns use. Anybody heard this or hold a similar/opposite view?

    Also, thanks to the admin for putting and keeping this forum up (and same to all who are speaking, writing, filming, protesting, confronting and taking from the tech what can work WITHOUT the life-crushing, lie-spewing pyramid money-making infrastructure Hubbard designed to help "smash" his clown face and ever-flapping rubbery lips into history, etc.). I've been lurking here a while and it's clear that people coming out of that spiritually hazardous environment, sometimes for the first time in decades, can certainly use all the moral and intellectual support they can get.
  17. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    My pleasure. May I quote you?

    Generally, Filbert is alternately full of himself and FOS, and best ignored. His comments here refer by name to the Mark VI, which was also a piece of shit compared to the Mark V and Mark VII.

    There are various threads here on the meter. I really don't recommend its use. Except in the hands of a real expert, it gets in the way and validates things that shouldn't be validated, and invalidates things that shouldn't be invalidated. Quick example: pc runs a "whole track" incident of being Jesus Christ, keys something out, feels wonderful and F/Ns widely. End of session. He may think that he WAS JC because "the meter said so."

  18. beltway

    beltway Bone Idle


    Good to know, thanks for clearing that up. As a kid I tried one of those cheap rising/falling-tone Tandy/RadioShack biofeedback boxes and have been fascinated with GSR ever since but never seemed to be in the right place at the right time to find a reasonably priced device (ebay, etc.) until just recently. Since I'm now waiting for a Mk.V in the mail I'm glad to know reading Filbert's book wasn't a total waste of time.

    Of course, you're right. At the same time, the ego is quick to set itself apart: "Well, *I* wouldn't be so silly", and yet it's the highly intelligent and other 'not so silly' folks who often find themselves on the wrong end of brutal conditioning and manipulation tactics... Again, thanks.
  19. revicamc

    revicamc Patron

    Some Questions:

    1) What is the difference between the Mark V and a regular Ohm - Meter (VOM)
    (Other than the Mark V is under-damped)

    2) From what I understand, since the auditor is not looking for the absolute
    resistance value of the subject(PC), but rather the at the movement
    of the needle, would designing a device using OP-AMPS wired to calculate
    the velocity (derivative(differential)) of the needle make more sense (if
    any of this makes sense) than sending the output from the Whetstone
    Bridge straight to the needle?
  20. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    One big difference is the ability to zero in on a small resistance range. For example, a regular ohm-meter might have a scale option for 0-10,000 ohms or 0-100,000 ohms, but you want to be able to zero in and have a full scale showing 5000-5500 ohms or 5000-5100 ohms or 16,000-17,000 ohms, say. In addition, you want the ability to rapidly (1/2 second) change the scale from whatever point you happen to be. For example, 5000-5100 to 5000-6000 (or 13456-13588 to 13456-15003), or 5000-5100 to 5100-5200 etc. The exact figures are somewhat arbitrary — on an e-meter you would only see TA from 0.5 to 6.5 and sensitivity from 1-32 on the dials. Most people who don't build meters and just use them would only be familiar with TA 2.0 = 5000 ohms and TA 3.0 = 12,500 ohms.

    I don't know enough to answer your op-amp question.

    Last edited: Apr 3, 2012