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Marty Condemns Auditing Over Skype, Ron's Org, and Capt. Bill Robertson

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
If the auditor is going to use a meter, #2 can work fine. The biggest problem with it seems to be its unbelievability. I think any good auditor should be able to do it, once he gets over the idea it's "theoretically" impossible (crappy theory). My introduction to the subject was getting 60 hours of R3X auditing over the phone from Robert Ducharme in 2004, all done with telepathic metering. He didn't miscall one read in all that time, not that I noticed anyway, and I'm very picky.

The other methods of metering via Skype all have big problems, mainly in requiring the pc to have the metering hardware, but also the difficulty of trying to see instant reads over an inherently-laggy connection.

Marty is just being a — hey, what do you get when you cross a Luddite with a Hubbardite?

Paul


Well, if what you and others are claiming is true (telepathic metering) is should easily be provable.

If it is not true that would be good to know, too, wouldn't it?

How about an experiment?

Same set up you described. The auditor and "pc" connected by Skype. The auditor holds the cans. In advance, let's have the pc write down a big wholetrack date at least in the billions, down to the last digit.

Now, the auditor does the dating drill.

Pc says nothing.

Auditor must be able to find the exact date or the experiment is a failure.

Control for the experiment is that another two auditors are also present watching the needle and hearing the commands, but cannot see the pc on Skype. So they are judging only whether it was an instant read or not without the benefit of looking at the pc's indicators.

At the end of the drill all three auditors turn in their worksheets and compare.

Perhaps there are more scientific experiments that could be conducted, but my guess is that they simply cannot do it. I would give them 50 tries and still do not think they could do it. Keep in mind that the main auditor cannot cheat the process if there are two other expert auditors noting the reads.

Fair test?
 

Veda

Sponsor
If you have been auditing effectively for 20 years or so, you get used to knowing what the pc is looking at and what he is leaving out of his itsa. Ron was not the only auditor who could see what the pc is thinking and intending.

If telepathy is too strong a word for you, maybe we can use some euphemism like "guessing".

"Guessing" would be more honest, IMO. As I explained in an earlier post - or posts - on this thread, I don't discount the possibility of telepathy, however there are other subtle forms of perception and communication that aren't necessarily telepathy. People "read" each other all the time, and how much of that is "telepathy" and how much of it is other things, including things not yet fully understood, are interesting questions.

OldAuditor said:
I realize that most of you have been badly burned by the unkept promises of Scientology and have adopted an attitude that it is all fakery. That is understandable.

That's a common line, but not true in my case, and not applicable in many other cases. Most people's views on Scientology are not based on being "ARC broken" with Scientology, but on their study of Scientology and its effects.

I kept getting glimpses of minor miracles all through my years of training, but I never realized that the suppressive environment of Scientology, Inc. prevented any display of abilities unless the C/S approved of it. My auditing abilities increased dramatically when I started an independent practice and delivered what pcs actually wanted.

Many people come into Scientology with abilities that are immediately invalidated by staff and execs. These people usually leave the church before they are completely caved in. When they get sessions that validate their abilities, they get immediate gains.

When an auditor and a pc are in excellent comm, they start sharing perceptions and the session just flies. An auditor who really knows how to grant beingness will maintain a safe space for the pc whether they are in the same room or miles away.

The idea that the "minor miracles" from Scientology have been prevented by the "suppressive environment of Scientology Inc.," is another often used line. I've audited inside of Scentology Inc and outside of Scientology Inc., and it was much more pleasant outside. But when I was auditing inside Scientology Inc., David Miscavige - the current scapegoat for why Scientology doesn't work as well as it's supposed to - was ten years old.

If you want to audit telepathically, then I'm all for you having the right to do so, even if you use an e-meter - with yourself holding the cans. At the moment, I'm not sure if you do or don't use an e-meter, so perhaps you could clarify that. :)

What concerns me most about this is the combination of the assumption of a high level of awareness, mixed with the abundant use of Hubbardisms and Hubbard-think.

By the way, do you still believe that Scientology wasn't a cult until David Miscavige became its leader?

How high on the scale of awareness does one need to travel before one can become aware of things in Scientology (not "Inc.," but the doctrine or teachings of Scientology) that other (less aware) beings have seen for years?
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Fair test?

Probably not — seems like you are proposing something guaranteed to fail. On the one hand, the whole track dating drill is extremely hard for auditors to do properly i.e., with no open help from the guy holding the cans (I've seen it done just once like this). Also, in real auditing the things being audited (should) have some real life/charge/kick/emotion in them, whereas an arbitrary whole-track "date" has none beyond the person's analytical "yes, you got it" or "missed again, dum-dum." On the other hand, if the auditor is up to snuff and can "share the space" of the person maybe it should be easy.

One thing I have been interested in doing is having both the auditor and pc separately on the cans, video the whole thing, and compare the reads to see if they match. That is relatively easy to do these days with computerised meters displaying on a monitor and Skype screen-sharing. I did this briefly with someone a few weeks back but he has been very busy since with work, Sandy, and subsequent storms, and I haven't seen the result. Plus it was me being the auditor, and I have next to no confidence in my ability to do this.

Whether they should match or not I wouldn't like to say. I'm not a fan of metered auditing, and don't believe that everything that is charged reads on a meter (hooked up to the pc). But I'm curious anyway to see what happens over several tests, preferably with a variety of people.

Paul
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
To quote The Who, "Meet the new boss... same as the old boss"

and I add to the list of the things I want every high-schooler to read that I posted in another thread is "Animal Farm". Some days it's just so weird to be out and looking at it from a whole new perspective... I had read Animal Farm in 6th grade, and it was one thing that did just give me one of those hmmmm moments during all the amnesties and such.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Probably not — seems like you are proposing something guaranteed to fail. On the one hand, the whole track dating drill is extremely hard for auditors to do properly i.e., with no open help from the guy holding the cans (I've seen it done just once like this). Also, in real auditing the things being audited (should) have some real life/charge/kick/emotion in them, whereas an arbitrary whole-track "date" has none beyond the person's analytical "yes, you got it" or "missed again, dum-dum." On the other hand, if the auditor is up to snuff and can "share the space" of the person maybe it should be easy.

One thing I have been interested in doing is having both the auditor and pc separately on the cans, video the whole thing, and compare the reads to see if they match. That is relatively easy to do these days with computerised meters displaying on a monitor and Skype screen-sharing. I did this briefly with someone a few weeks back but he has been very busy since with work, Sandy, and subsequent storms, and I haven't seen the result. Plus it was me being the auditor, and I have next to no confidence in my ability to do this.

Whether they should match or not I wouldn't like to say. I'm not a fan of metered auditing, and don't believe that everything that is charged reads on a meter (hooked up to the pc). But I'm curious anyway to see what happens over several tests, preferably with a variety of people.Paul


Good post!

You and I spent an inordinate amount of time supervising auditor training courses, SHSBC and watching people do (or try to do) the whole track dating drill.

I regard that as one of Scientology's dirty little secrets. Scientology could send their top 100 best auditors and NONE of them could pass that drill legitimately. It's a sham.

On the alternate test that you propose, yes, that would be much better indeed. I thought of the frailty of using the dating drill (knowing full well that the items aren't "charged" and that nobody can actually do the drill) but I was feeling in a feisty mood so I threw it in there because according to the tech, that meter drill is SUPPOSED to be doable. LOLOLOLOL. Okay, I'll behave.

I like your test idea a lot. Those side-by-side comparisons of the telepathic reads vs the actual reactions would be good. If my life depended on it, I bet the house there is no comparison.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Good post!

You and I spent an inordinate amount of time supervising auditor training courses, SHSBC and watching people do (or try to do) the whole track dating drill.

I regard that as one of Scientology's dirty little secrets. Scientology could send their top 100 best auditors and NONE of them could pass that drill legitimately. It's a sham.

On the alternate test that you propose, yes, that would be much better indeed. I thought of the frailty of using the dating drill (knowing full well that the items aren't "charged" and that nobody can actually do the drill) but I was feeling in a feisty mood so I threw it in there because according to the tech, that meter drill is SUPPOSED to be doable. LOLOLOLOL. Okay, I'll behave.

I like your test idea a lot. Those side-by-side comparisons of the telepathic reads vs the actual reactions would be good. If my life depended on it, I bet the house there is no comparison.

I spent years both supervising & doing those dating drills. And you're right. It's every academy's dirty little secret. And it's every metering course graduate's dirty little secret. It was mine for ages. I justified it by thinking - "It doesn't matter how I passed, I passed and I can read a god damned meter. Fuck you and your impossible fucking drills."

I used to watch the indicators. And if you were a "clever PC" you'd give obvious indicators.

"Is it millions of years?" - no read and no smile
"Is it trillions of years?" - no read but a smile.
"I'll repeat the question - Is it trillions of years?" - no read but a bigger smile
"I'll repeat the question - Is it trillions of years?" - Small Fall

"It is trillions of years."

Yes but it only read because it was now a withhold (If you believe that stuff).

I watched a pair of metering students on that drill for over a year. Yep a year. :duh:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
In the one I saw working properly the pc said nothing and didn't obviously show it with winks, smiles etc. His needle was beautifully clean. The auditor (Thelma Cusworth) called out what she was doing, using what reads she got. When she went the wrong way she noticed the needle tightening up and asked if she'd made a mistake. No answer from the pc but the needle cleaned up. The thing went bang bang bang and only took minutes. Very impressive.

It was unfortunate in a way because it showed me that the drill could be done and I then thought anyone should be able to do it like that. Dream on.

Paul
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I spent years both supervising & doing those dating drills. And you're right. It's every academy's dirty little secret. And it's every metering course graduate's dirty little secret. It was mine for ages. I justified it by thinking - "It doesn't matter how I passed, I passed and I can read a god damned meter. Fuck you and your impossible fucking drills."

I used to watch the indicators. And if you were a "clever PC" you'd give obvious indicators.

"Is it millions of years?" - no read and no smile
"Is it trillions of years?" - no read but a smile.
"I'll repeat the question - Is it trillions of years?" - no read but a bigger smile
"I'll repeat the question - Is it trillions of years?" - Small Fall

"It is trillions of years."

Yes but it only read because it was now a withhold (If you believe that stuff).

I watched a pair of metering students on that drill for over a year. Yep a year. :duh:


:clapping::clapping::clapping:

STUDENT
Is it years?
Is it tens of years?
(gets a read)
Is it tens of years?

COACH
Nahh, we've only been on
this dating drill 6 years.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I watched a pair of metering students on that drill for over a year. Yep a year. :duh:


An impossible meter drill.

Based on "mental charge" that doesn't exist.

Framed by a "technology" that was made up.

"Kept" working by KSW when it never worked in the first place.

Isn't this the point where the Course Supervisor is supposed to tell the failed student that his/her "why" is that their "TR-1" was out?

TR-1????????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Yup, that's why the meter didn't work.

Yup, that's why the student can't do the drill alright.

Because they are not saying the magic words correctly.

Yup, that's why there are no miracles happening.

Fucking madness, I tell ya. LOL
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
In the one I saw working properly the pc said nothing and didn't obviously show it with winks, smiles etc. His needle was beautifully clean. The auditor (Thelma Cusworth) called out what she was doing, using what reads she got. When she went the wrong way she noticed the needle tightening up and asked if she'd made a mistake. No answer from the pc but the needle cleaned up. The thing went bang bang bang and only took minutes. Very impressive.

It was unfortunate in a way because it showed me that the drill could be done and I then thought anyone should be able to do it like that. Dream on.

Paul
Good Gawd, on the GAT Solo NOTs Certainty Course I did it flublessly 3X in a row, then the damn Supe had me do it again in Breaktime to show another student "how easy it was to do". It can be done and, in fact, I used to do it for "fun" to show people how the e-meter works. I've done it as a Drill probably 50 or 60 times over the years. I've done actual Date/Locating thousands of times in sessions.


I'm not so sure about the "insignificance" of these supposedly random dates the Coach usually comes up with in the Drill
.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Demonstration of Telepathic Auditing

I spent years both supervising & doing those dating drills. And you're right. It's every academy's dirty little secret. And it's every metering course graduate's dirty little secret. It was mine for ages.

Thank-You Emma for telling me this! :)

What other dirty little secrets are you holding on to?


Yes, THAT one! THAT one right there.....what is THAT! THAT! :omg:



:biggrin:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I'm not so sure about the "insignificance" of these supposedly random dates the Coach usually comes up with in the Drill
.

True. I tried to made sure the coach picked a date "out of his head" and not by tossing a coin several times, or something random like that. But when it's trillions of years ago I have my doubts. :)

Paul
 

Veda

Sponsor
In the one I saw working properly the pc said nothing and didn't obviously show it with winks, smiles etc. His needle was beautifully clean. The auditor (Thelma Cusworth) called out what she was doing, using what reads she got. When she went the wrong way she noticed the needle tightening up and asked if she'd made a mistake. No answer from the pc but the needle cleaned up. The thing went bang bang bang and only took minutes. Very impressive.

It was unfortunate in a way because it showed me that the drill could be done and I then thought anyone should be able to do it like that. Dream on.

Paul

That sort of thing was part of how I rationalized remaining involved in Scientology. I'd see something done "properly," and think, "Wow! See it does work!" People who had really really smooth and constant floating needles, who were extremely calm, who had big eyes that never blinked, were impressive. They "knew."

Years later, I realized those impressions were misleading, that the events I witnessed were isolated oddities, often, even oddities to the people who seemed so very cool and "theta" to me at the time.

In a few instances, there were people who just had a knack for whatever it was. The person could, fairly consistently, do something, and that was impressive, and it would follow that Scientology was therefore validated and vindicated.

Later, I ran into some of the people who impressed me so, and it turned out that they were just ordinary people, not Clears, not OTs (although they had certs that said they were); they were just people, and with worries and problems and all that stuff that people have. At the time I figured that they must have become "PTS" to something, rather than realize I had simply encountered them during an isolated instance, which happen to impress me at the time, or that the particular person just had a knack for that particular item, and that it didn't much connect to anything else, and certainly didn't validate Scientology or its promises or theories.

As time went by, I noticed that other people were very impressed by other things that no longer impressed me, because I knew more than they. Some people were even impressed by me, and how I did something. I was their example of how it's done "properly." I was there "Wow!" experience, confirming for them that Scientology really does "work."

Looking back on it, it was about 30% substance, 70% illusion.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
I was reading over on Ant's thread where he posts excerpts from The Pilot's writings. It was interesting The Pilot and several others during incident running came across the similar problem of being 'TOLD' at the time of particular incidents that this was a 'START OF TRACK' or the beginning of time. It's all bogus. That's why D/L, even while attempting to DO it smacks of betrayal to me many times. Now THAT is how I have ended up feeling about it after running into my own endless 'correct' and 'incorrect' and 'corrected' D/Ls.

I have a hard time with TIME :confused2: as it is. It is something manipulated by anyone NOT confined by it or not tracking with us in our current game matrix. I believe for this reason that it is not trustworthy. I have run incidents that came 'after' other incidents but they read as 'earlier incidents'. I have read from a few others that they've experienced this same connundrum. So what 'is' time. :unsure:I think we trick ourselves so we can HAVE something and others trick each other with the same bullshit. Possibly WE are the bullshitters being bullshitted by others, (timeless beings like ourselves) playing in a universe of time.

ARE events chronological? Absolutely, it would seem so. :yes: It would seem forbidden to change anything around. But it is possible that we always attempt it or misrepresent it or lie and give someone else a misconception about their chronology of events. Like when we create 'machinery' that creates for us that it is all brand new like at birth., Like when we place a motivator before an overt. Or when we tell the traffic cop that someone's light was defiintiely RED and it was 'our' right of way that was violated. I've caught myself in my own mental chicanery (ceaseless :biggrin:) which jams things and makes life less etheric and more dense. If I had never discovered any truth in my own lies I would never have been able to blow anything ever.

It would seem that any time there is a split off from being omniscient and entering the agreed upon world....there would have to be a 'first point. The point of entering. The new beginning point. So maybe each of the individual minds that make up our composite along with the body has its' own 'first point'...it's own beginning of time or what it has been 'told' is it.

I've been reading....

Ralph Hilton has done a lot of work on the subject of monitors. CBR had done a lot of work with taking apart 'plugs' and hoovered leftovers of universes that were used to create helpful or not so helpful machinery. The Pilot had done research pointing to the idea that beings from different invader forces corral each other after their Waterloos, making them part of opposing teams' games. Also that they are given phony 'reasons why' and a new beginning of track each time they are picked up and launched off into a new goal, firmly believing it's their real item.... when it is only nearly so!
 
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Smilla

Ordinary Human
I've come to believe (might unbelieve it any moment) that all moments are occurring simultaneously.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I've come to believe (might unbelieve it any moment) that all moments are occurring simultaneously.

Add to that the geographical coincidence needed for telepathic metering and you end up with "the whole universe in a grain of sand" concept, although most explanations of that phrase have a different interpretation.

Paul
 

Good twin

Floater
I only extremely rarely read Marty's blog and I don't much keep up with what's happening in the Indie scene. I do hear things from time to time. Some of it is amusing, like when I hear Marty followers talk about Scn Inc members being Kool Aid drinkers.

Marty hates not just on Davey, but he belittles the victims that haven't step out as well. I never could fall into that philosophy. I always remember that they are who I used to be and I'm not any smarter or righter since I stepped out of that particular matrix. Marty was nasty to me when I posted a comment or two at his place. I didn't feel welcome there.

But is anybody? I really am shocked that he blasted David St Lawrence. Having known the man personally 30 plus years and knowing others who knew him decades since then while still in the cult, I can say with a level of certainty only slightly lower than that of a true believer, David St Lawrence is and honorable and compassionate man who tries his best to make a difference for the benefit of others. He should be treated with respect and compassion even on matters that we don't agree on.

Haters indeed. That's us, the folks who see through Marty's bullshit and realize it smells just like Hubbards. I don't hate Scientologists. I don't hate squirrels. I don't hate on people who disagree with me. But I really hate the guy or gal that attacks or minimizes my right to disagree. That's why Marty hates me.

Do these Indies stay in Marty's camp as he's tromping on their core values and basic humans rights? Do they enjoy being ridiculed and treated like children or unthinking droids? I don't get why they stick around. I've met some non marty squirrels and they are mostly cool people. Marty needs to chill out and realize there is a great big world that he doesn't have to save. That was a huge turning point for me and I struggle with it still. But it's important. If Marty doesn't deal with some of his stuff he will turn into Capt Bill. He's practically there already.

Sorry kids I'm rambling. Just had to comment because this thread really fascinated me. :yes:
 
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Smilla

Ordinary Human
Exhausted In Dependents exited an emergency meeting on the subject of Skype Auditing, and issued this press statement:

"Skype Auditing is an abomination spawned by unclean spirits who have knowingly rejected the love and redemption of Our Lord Ron. It is an urge and a scourge that must be purged."

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSFI6LNbxng[/video]

No comment has been received from the FreeZone, as they have every one gone into hiding, but there are rumours of a merger with the highly successful Westboro Baptists Church.

protestwestboro.jpg







 
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