What's new

Papers on Spirituality - Peer Reviews

Vinaire

Sponsor
Vinaire,
Here are the points from your reply to me, with my comments:
(1) The concept of "beginning" and the concept of "end" are complementary.
Sure, no problem with that. This is our apparent common experience.

Sure, we can communicate only through our common experience.


(2) Neither of these concepts makes complete sense all by itself.
This is not so obvious to me. For example, say God has an angel factory and creates an eternal angel every so often as the need arises. Or, as another example, when I post this reply it will begin the period of time in which my reply will have existed. What will be the end event for my reply's having existed?

The examples you have given are of two thoughts that you generated. The contents of the thoughts doesn't matter as it could be anything. There was a point where you began generating these thoughts for examples, and there was a point where you ended generating these thoughts for examples.

The idea that you can begin an activity but can never end it; or the idea that you can end an activity that never began, does not make sense to me.


(3) Life has a beginning. Life also has an end.
Well, life in the sense that we typically mean it appears to be that way. So if you are referring to life as we know it, OK. But might life take on other forms than physical DNA-based structures that are prone to deterioration?

That is speculation. And a speculation has a beginning and an end.



(4) It is impossible to find something that is eternal.
I don't think that this statement is quite right. Given that you are a life form that will die, you have no way of verifying that something is eternal, but that doesn't mean that an eternal thing isn't eternal. Maybe the universe we live in is eternal somehow. Or maybe there's an eternal god.

These are more speculations. Per Essay #3, speculations come about from attempts to know the unknowable.


To summarize, it seems to me that even though your papers are to be about spirituality, at least this one basic assumption is grounded in your experience in the physical world, at least as we commonly understand it.

Spirituality is not exclusive of physical experience. The physical experience resides in spirituality.

.
 
Last edited:

Vinaire

Sponsor
"Gotta have something" is an interesting thought.

One can start believing in it. Then it becomes a reality to that person.

.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
Mr. Nobody, could you please tell me what is ONE divided by ZERO.

I find that an average American usually answers with "zero."

So, what is your answer, Mr. Nobody?

.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Mr. Nobody, could you please tell me what is ONE divided by ZERO.

I find that an average American usually answers with "zero."

So, what is your answer, Mr. Nobody?

.

Well, my 1st answer, without even thinking about it, would have been "It can't be done.", but since you're the math guy, that answer wouldn't be very satisfying for you, would it? :) So I'm using my meager math skills and say: "Technically, any division by Zero gives an undefined result".

I remember when during a math lesson, we came up with different results for the same equation, and our teacher said they both were right. When we asked how that could be, he just smiled and said "You'll find out." I was the only one who really wanted to know, and it took me a week to find out that half of our class had unknowingly run into a "Division by Zero" problem.

Anyway, this Wikipedia article probably isn't news for you, but for those readers who'd like to know, I'll put it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
For a Semitic, the ultimate reality is BEING or existing. He stops looking once he arrives at this point. For him it is just BEING from here on out.

For a Vedic (or a true scientist), the ultimate reality is forever unknown. He never stops and keeps looking, and in that journey he continues to discover wonderful stuff of which all discoveries are made.

.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
Well, my 1st answer, without even thinking about it, would have been "It can't be done.", but since you're the math guy, that answer wouldn't be very satisfying for you, would it? :) So I'm using my meager math skills and say: "Technically, any division by Zero gives an undefined result".

I remember when during a math lesson, we came up with different results for the same equation, and our teacher said they both were right. When we asked how that could be, he just smiled and said "You'll find out." I was the only one who really wanted to know, and it took me a week to find out that half of our class had unknowingly run into a "Division by Zero" problem.

Anyway, this Wikipedia article probably isn't news for you, but for those readers who'd like to know, I'll put it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero

Good. You are not an average American. But you are still Semitic in your thinking.

.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
I can turn that right around and say that you are assuming that the laws of conservation of energy and matter, which are applicable within the universe, also apply outside the universe. I do not see anything supporting that assumption.

Due to lack of data, any answer I could give to questions regarding "outside this universe" would be "undefined". So I'd prefer to stick to what I know, and try to expand from there. If I ever get to know everything about this universe, I may take it a step further.

It is like extrapolating human attributes to a speculated God being. You are trying to define the unknowable by projecting on it the limited amount you know. So, let me say this back to you:

"No offense intended, but your assumption sounds more like stage magic than like anything scientific."

When I dive into the world of imagination, I can be, do and have anything I can imagine, and I'm not bound to any rules at all while I'm there. I can BE God. I can create universes within milliseconds, and give them rulesets not yet known to man. But then I get hungry, thirsty, and I need to pee, so I decide to go back into the real world, and deal with these very real issues in the here and now.

You may call me a weakling for not wanting to die from starvation and dehydration while sitting in my own feces and dreaming to be God, the creator and master of all universes, but that's just how I roll.

Please check your assumptions. Please check what are you basing them on. If you are basing them on this universe then it is like circular logic. You are basically saying that the universe defines itself. Great! So?

Assumptions are just what they are: Assumptions. They may or may not be based on reality. Imagine a world without hypothetical situations...

This universe, or what little I know thereof, is all I HAVE, to base anything of value on.

Can there be an original thought? According to your theory it would be impossible to generate an original thought.

If you base your thoughts on available facts, then the number of possible original thoughts is indeed limited. There is only a limited number of facts and combinations thereof available. One of the goals of science, as I see it, is to discover new combinations of facts, derive new rules from them, and expand our understanding of this world. Sometimes they even discover new facts.

To me, it makes sense to base my real-life thoughts on facts. In my imagination, I can just send my "spiritual" self over to wherever you are and have a drink and a nice personal conversation with you. If I don't tell you about it beforehand and in this physical universe, will you ever notice my spiritual journey? Will you ever remember anything we discussed during my imaginary conversation with you?

I doubt my "journey" would have any effect on you or on anyone or anything at all, because it all happen in my head, and ONLY there.

It won't compute for anyone who tries to define "nothing" from the reference point of this universe. A reference point from which this universe can be discussed has to be totally independent of this universe.

This universe is all I have to place a reference point in. Anything outside of it is undefined.

Basically what you are saying is that there is just this universe and there is nothing beyond it, so why discuss it. Any discussion with the circular logic you are using would be like being on an intellectual treadmill or circular wheel. You cannot get off the circle.

.

I don't say there is nothing beyond this universe, I'm saying I have no data regarding anything outside this universe. So all I would be able to discuss would be imaginary data, and I don't see how this could lead me or anyone else anywhere.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
Due to lack of data, any answer I could give to questions regarding "outside this universe" would be "undefined". So I'd prefer to stick to what I know, and try to expand from there. If I ever get to know everything about this universe, I may take it a step further.



When I dive into the world of imagination, I can be, do and have anything I can imagine, and I'm not bound to any rules at all while I'm there. I can BE God. I can create universes within milliseconds, and give them rulesets not yet known to man. But then I get hungry, thirsty, and I need to pee, so I decide to go back into the real world, and deal with these very real issues in the here and now.

You may call me a weakling for not wanting to die from starvation and dehydration while sitting in my own feces and dreaming to be God, the creator and master of all universes, but that's just how I roll.



Assumptions are just what they are: Assumptions. They may or may not be based on reality. Imagine a world without hypothetical situations...

This universe, or what little I know thereof, is all I HAVE, to base anything of value on.



If you base your thoughts on available facts, then the number of possible original thoughts is indeed limited. There is only a limited number of facts and combinations thereof available. One of the goals of science, as I see it, is to discover new combinations of facts, derive new rules from them, and expand our understanding of this world. Sometimes they even discover new facts.

To me, it makes sense to base my real-life thoughts on facts. In my imagination, I can just send my "spiritual" self over to wherever you are and have a drink and a nice personal conversation with you. If I don't tell you about it beforehand and in this physical universe, will you ever notice my spiritual journey? Will you ever remember anything we discussed during my imaginary conversation with you?

I doubt my "journey" would have any effect on you or on anyone or anything at all, because it all happen in my head, and ONLY there.



This universe is all I have to place a reference point in. Anything outside of it is undefined.



I don't say there is nothing beyond this universe, I'm saying I have no data regarding anything outside this universe. So all I would be able to discuss would be imaginary data, and I don't see how this could lead me or anyone else anywhere.


I already know all that you are telling me. There is nothing new there.

This physical universe is a circular system. If you use this universe as your reference point, you will only see this universe, and not beyond it.

But if one can look at this universe from "outside the box" one may be able to come up with a larger system of which this physical universe is only a sub-system.

.
 
Last edited:

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Well, fish swim in water. They have to, They proves the existence of water. If you look you see it therefore it is.

Now taking the same approach... birds fly in air. They have to and they proves the existence of air. See ? Ah ha ! You looked. You know it is there !:happydance:

Anyway, before getting the deserved peer review I so keenly desire I'm going to thrown in the really simple one in case anyone has slagged off on getting the infallibility of my presentation of irrefutable facts in all universes both known and unknown.:happydance:

Here it is : Toads hop on land. They prove the existence of land and therefore - hang with me here .. it is coming ! - earth. Earth has now been proven to exist!:happydance::happydance:

Now we will next enter the realm of being we have agreed something exists we will get into the matter, energy, space, and time in which it exists as itself ( other things it could exist as - or did exists as - will come later ).:confused2:
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?

The Great Zorg

Gold Meritorious Patron
Here it is : Toads hop on land. They prove the existence of land and therefore - hang with me here .. it is coming ! - earth. Earth has now been proven to exist!

I've seen toads hover and move forward slowly in mid air. What does this prove (other than too much LDS in the 70's)?


picture.php
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Obviously the implication is that *he* exists to see this wondrous happening. Narcissistic solipsists the world over will torch him in Effigy, a small town in North Dakota...

Zinj
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
"Narcissistic solipsists the world over will torch him in Effigy, a small town in North Dakota..."

Narcissistic solipsists ? Hey now it was about the earth and to go calling my precious pet toad some Narcissistic solipsists is going to not only confuse the masses of keenly intrigued thread readers here but also obfuscate my desired peer review of the deeply interesting ( if not just stunning brilliance of ) multi-farted essay.

Sheesh.
 

me myself & i

Patron Meritorious
Obviously the implication is that *he* exists to see this wondrous happening. Narcissistic solipsists the world over will torch him in Effigy, a small town in North Dakota...

Zinj

Damn I swear for some reason that quote just cracks me up right now! And i'm not even sure why. lol.

Could be a host of reasons. Lol.

Truth being a good one. Lol.

I being a Narcissistic Solipsist for the record. (as best as I can tell).

Mojo
 
Top