Questions from an ex second gen

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by wogwog, Jun 6, 2018.

View Users: View Users
  1. wogwog

    wogwog Patron

    Hello, I've been reading the board for years and finally wanted to ask a few questions.

    Who besides Miscavige speaks at major events these days now that all the other high level executives are either in the Hole or have blown? What faces do current Scientologist see on stage at events? Would anyone from a decade ago still be showing up besides Miscavige and the LRH Biographer?

    Do current Scientologists, either public or Sea Org, not know the Int exec strata was wiped out? What would they run into if they started asking questions along this line? If these posts are not filled, what's the justification that's used to explain their absence? For example, what answer would I get if I asked a New OT VIII who the Snr C/S Int is today?

    I got out before Debbie Cook's e-mail and court testimony and did not see what their effects were like in the Scientology community. How big of an impact did she make? I have talked to a few Scientologists who act like she was just some nut job SP who just "somehow" rose to be the Commanding Officer FSO and run the world's largest service org and the Mecca of Technical Perfection for decades. Makes you wonder how all these "SPs" keep dedicating decades of their lives to the highest levels of Scientology without "the Tech" and Super Powered OTs catching them sooner?:duh:

    Thanks!
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • List
  2. cakemaker

    cakemaker Patron Meritorious

    Good questions!
    I'm pretty sure Miscavige is the only one that speaks at the big events.
    I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics those in the bubble have to do to explain the absence of any management terminals. I hope a recent defector can answer your questions more thoroughly.
     
  3. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Yes, those ARE good questions! :yes:

    It's difficult for me to answer too many of them as I've been out since 1989. Although many of the events have been posted over at the Underground Bunker I couldn't stand to watch more than 5 or 10 mins of them. :eek:

    For me, I left just several days after LRH departed to Target Two, and I had serious questions after that that never got answered. I had doubts about the official story. But I never spoke to anyone about my doubts and suspicions. I knew that if my suspicions were in fact correct and I voiced my thoughts on the official story being BS that things would end up badly for me.

    I think Scientologists know that certain questions and doubts are dangerous to bring up. It's even dangerous to think certain thoughts, given the use of Sec Checks, Roll Backs, etc. So they get good at pushing those thoughts into a distant corner of their mind and forgetting about them.
     
  4. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    It's a great question. I don't know. Last event I went to was early 90s. But it was events that really started turning me off as a public Scientologist. I used to help set these up in the Sea Org and they were needlessly stressful. Always disrupted the org, crashed stats, lost sleep, worry over whether going to get a commendation or ethics chit or worse.

    To me as public, events felt weird. Reconnecting with people I knew felt awkward. Always having to update what you are doing in Scientology and where you are on the Bridge. If not very active it's a red flag. People are paying for tables and stressed over what it is costing them to attend, lot's of statusy one-upsmanship in the air. Paranoia about committing some kind of Scientological faux pas, over-asking and oversharing in a censor driven culture, avoiding getting roped into volunteering for something. Lot's of the same old blah blah; expansion, Clearing the Planet, clap to Ron...while you know the local org or mission is going nowhere, downsizing to some dedicated OT Committee member's business address.

    You come away feeling like you need a shower. It's depressing. Then the Church has become so neurotic about who it elevates in the public's eye to be worthy to represent them at events. They try so hard to build them up with glowing praise deep down knowing that chances are they will eventually have to declare them SPs and make it all quietly and quickly go away with some shore story. SP declares used to be so public, posted on the org's bulletin board. It was the Scio gossip section but now they don't do that. It's a rumor line. "If it isn't written it isn't true"...except if it's an SP declare.

    They do seem to have people to put out there for local events but the venues seem small - easy to do damage control. We see people dressing up as pirates and giving out and receiving awards with well worn PC win patter. An endless parade of increasingly hokey gimmicks to get people to attend. These used to be based on surveys to get Issue Authority for promo but I think they have worn out those buttons so much that now anything goes. From all the bad spelling and grammatical errors I've decided that the LRH Comms doing the IA reviews are ESL or no longer exist.

    It's just a matter of time before the big events have so few public that they are essentially just mandatory staff briefings with several highly vetted props - nothing that even photoshop can fix. We know the massive security around main events isn't just to keep DM's imagery from being captured but to keep the attendance numbers and staff backfilling from being critiqued. Miscavige has to talk for hours because they don't trust anyone else to fill the time. I'd be heavy on the scotch if I had to do that in a new unit of time every New Years also.

    Can you imagine having to do the call-in for events? That has to be a horrible job. Under a lot of pressure to get people to go without letting a blacklister through who isn't on board with the charade.

    Those poor people.
     
    • Like Like x 9
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • List
  5. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Even when on staff at Boston Org during the 80's I HATED doing call-in and just absolutely refused to do it 95% of the time. HCO in my org kind of tolerated my refusal to do it; it seemed they realized that no threats from Ethics would work on me. I was at the point where I would just leave rather than do certain things, and call-in was one of those things.

    Back around 1985 (give or take a year) something happened that is amusing now to me looking back at it. I got into Ethics trouble, busted off my post and so did the Ethics Officer for Bsn Day org at the same time. (I was on Foundation, evenings/weekends for you never-in's). Somehow we were handed over to the CLO/FOLO EUS and instead of doing any type of Ethics handling they just sent us off on a Mission to be the advance men for the LRH Birthday event at FCDC org. :faceslap:


    Steve Goodwin (Ethics Officer Bsn D) was the Mission I/C and I was his assistant. So after my refusal to do call-in for years at my own org here I was, assisting Steve who was responsible for all of call-in for FCDC org (as well as all other aspects of preparing for the event). :D

    Anyways, it was good getting away from Boston Org. The change of scenery was good for me, and less stressful there too. Plus FCDC org got their highest ever attendance for an LRH Birthday event up to that point!
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  6. wogwog

    wogwog Patron

    Thanks for the replies. I hope I can hear from a recently exited member because I have not seen an event in a long time, but they were still bringing out the other executives then. How do long time members who remember the days of Mike Rinder, Heber Jentzsch, etc. getting up on stage rationalize their disappearance? Just "not-is" it because that sure seems like the kind of dangerous thought that leads to a lot of painful sec checks, O/Ws, ethic investigations, etc.?

    Unrelated to that, I have another question that always bugged me when I was still in.

    Per Scientology logic, where is the mental mass of the mind physically located? In or around the current body? Does it travel with the thetan, or can the thetan access it from any distance? What about when a thetan supposedly has multiple bodies like in "body in tow" -- do the bodies all interact with the mental mass regardless of distance? Is it supposedly in a "pocket dimension" as if that makes it able to affect bodies and thetans wherever they are? I realize this is all sci fi nonsense now, but I never got the "Scientology answer" to this and was always curious. I remember people giving wins at Flag like saying they weighed themselves in the morning and again after session and lost 20 lbs. from being so keyed out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
    • Like Like x 3
    • LOL LOL x 1
    • List
  7. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    This is why events are so self destructive for Scientology. Instead of having their act together with an events org with a stable grooved in crew and it's own financing, etc. they run it through the Continental Liaison Office which has to scrounge up underutilized personnel from wherever they can find them. Once somebody gets on the CLO's list of people who can be tagged they get tagged repeatedly until the Peter Principle kicks in and they screw up. This is a constant source of disruption and tears apart orgs, over burdening staff who then leave or fail on the project and land in ethics which starts some kind of irreversible trajectory out.

    And it isn't just with events that they do this. There are recruitment missions, SP witch hunt missions, IAS regging missions, org board staffing and reorganization missions, renovation missions, Flag regging tours. It's endless. These people in management sit around and plan this stuff constantly. It's their stat. They review all the weekly stats, analyze them according to the Data Series and write programs. They have done this so many times that it's on autopilot. There is no room for common sense. It is inconceivable that they would associate a crashed stat with an event because there was an event or too many events. They have to find something or someone else to blame. They have seniority over the local EDs and everybody so they create a constant state of emergency and instability. But if you make this point then you are an SP. You have counter intentions and evil ints against LRH, Miscavige and Scientology. You are blunting dissemination and reach.

    I can understand why they put so much of their resources into the props department. With so little "there" there you need more and more, bigger and better glitz.

    LRH wrote so much policy about how to create stable producing orgs on one hand all the while creating policy that tears them apart with the other.
     
  8. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Another great question. Thetans are a static - no energy and no mass. They are "Not a nothingness".

    But engrams have mass that can be postulated into existence or out of existence by the thetan.

    Thetans can postulate themselves from one point in space and time to another. So if a thetan postulates themselves from earth to the moon without regard to the laws of physics governing the movement of mass from one point to the other, how does their mental mass follow them?

    I'd like to be able to say that in Scientology the laws of physics governing mental mass are conveniently different and not subject to the laws of regular physical universe mass except the Factors tell us that the physical universe is essentially the aggregation of mental mass shed by thetans over trillions of years.

    Maybe there is something like a law of conservation of matter that says if a thetan disappears in one location and reappears in another the mass is instantly replicated in the exact configuration in the new location.
     
  9. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    My information is about 10 years old, pre-2008, since I don't chat with anyone "in" anymore.

    However, I had an OT8 (triple-attest; did it 3 times) friend who used to keep in close personal contact with the Vice-President of CSI, Bob Adams, over the years. Bob was a longtime friend.

    Just for my own amusement, about once a year (in the 2000's) I'd ask my friend in earnest:

    "Where's Heber? Why don't we see Heber on stage at events anymore?"​

    My friend would ask Bob Adams next time he/she saw him and the answer was always:

    "Heber's my senior. I work with him. He's doing just fine.​
    Saw him last week. He's just busy working on critical projects."​

    My OT8 friend was 100% fine with that answer year after year after year. All along I knew from reading the message boards that Heber was locked up in The Hole and it was all a "shore story." I'm cat playing with mouse here, if you will. Amused me to no end. :hysterical:

    Pretty sad to see an OT8, a person I 'd know for a long time, so deluded and not figuring out the obvious.

    That's the way it goes until they wake up and finally quit. :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
    • Like Like x 4
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • List
  10. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    In one of the lectures from 1952, Ron claimed he was currently running 5-6 bodies on this planet. And that most people were. He said people would run into this phenomenon during their own auditing.

    Never heard about it again after that particular week.

    In the SHSBC lecture Between Lives Implants ('65-66 maybe), he went on for 90 minutes saying his discovery of an implant station on Venus -- which he had visited that week and inspected very closely -- would crack all cases and proof up one from being implanted ever again. Other stuff too. Heck, it's 90 minutes of technical descriptions and promises.

    That day it was a major, major discovery. Then it's never mentioned again in the tech ever again, as far as I know . . . and I've seen it all I think.

    Ron had a habit of discovering major discoveries that would solve everything and then raving about them on tape . . . never to be mentioned again in the tech.

    I guess they were his cognitions du jour.

    Oh, well. I wouldn't put much attention or credence in any of it.

    It didn't work out well for him personally. :no:
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
    • Love Love x 1
    • List
  11. wogwog

    wogwog Patron

    Whoa, triple OT 8! Is that OT 24? OT 83?

    It's amazing how many ludicrous "discoveries" Ron would throw out to applause then never be mentioned again except by some SHSBC grad who had to listen to all of those proclamations 45 years later. I remember before Super Power came out, there was an event where whoever was on stage talking about the "full OT super powers" quoted Ron by saying that bodies don't really need to eat to make energy because thetans can create energy from nothing, and stomachs are just an aberration because MEST bodies had degraded our abilities so much, and he scoffed at the laws of thermodynamics and those silly physicists who believe in the conservation of matter/energy. I think the same speaker talked about vocal chords being a degraded form of communication because a real thetan uses radio waves for telepathy. I was so amazed by that when I was in, and couldn't believe those silly scientists were so stuck in the MEST universe they didn't see how you could just will matter and energy in and out of existence!
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  12. wogwog

    wogwog Patron

    Does anyone know the HCOPL where Ron warns that he had it on good authority that because of pollution the Earth is would run out of oxygen in the next decade, and we had all better work even harder to clear the planet before that happens? I remember wondering what Scientology did to prevent that from happening since I was reading warning decades after it was written.
     
  13. pineapple

    pineapple Patron Meritorious

    Kind of like those great cognitions you used to have on drugs that didn't make any sense the next day ...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
    • LOL LOL x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  14. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Steve Hassan's BITE model is helpful in searching for your answers.
    Behaviour control
    Information control
    Thought control
    Emotional control

    Just a little bit of sorting by examples:

    Information Control
    Do current Scientologists, either public or Sea Org, not know the Int exec strata was wiped out?
    How do long time members who remember the days of Mike Rinder, Heber Jentzsch, etc. getting up on stage rationalize their disappearance?
    SP declares used to be so public, posted on the org's bulletin board. It was the Scio gossip section but now they don't do that


    Thought Control:
    + I have talked to a few Scientologists who act like she was just some nut job SP who just "somehow" rose to be the Commanding Officer FSO and run the world's largest service org and the Mecca of Technical Perfection for decades.
    +Makes you wonder how all these "SPs" keep dedicating decades of their lives to the highest levels of Scientology without "the Tech" and Super Powered OTs catching them sooner?
    >>>>> Read up on Fair Game of which 'Dead agenting packs created by OSA are used.
    Behaviour control
    Emotional control
    We see people dressing up as pirates and giving out and receiving awards with well worn PC win patter. An endless parade of increasingly hokey gimmicks to get people to attend.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • List
  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't remember that but thankfully I don't remember everything. But Hubbard was hanging out in Palm Springs like what, in the early 50s, and then he chose La Quinta as his hang out in the 70s. I do remember how bad the smog was in the 60's with leaded gas. Everything was covered with this black gritty soot. And the winds predominantly blow from the ocean inland pushing all that LA smog through Burbank on to the Palm Springs valley so maybe that's what convinced him pollution would be the end times. Or was it Nuclear war? Whatever. The important thing is, yes, we were in a UFO doomsday cult.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • List
  16. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Welcome Wogwog. I like your questions. I am curious as to what recent or current information you have about what it is like inside or what those inside might be talking about and what their utterances are. Was it long ago that you became an ex?
     
  17. strativarius

    strativarius Comfortably Numb

    Well, when I read that I just had to smile. Best of all were the 'profound thoughts' that you wrote down that turned out to be pure psychobabble when you read them back next morning. Lol!
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • Love Love x 1
    • LOL LOL x 1
    • List
  18. wogwog

    wogwog Patron

    Thanks for laying it out like that. I have read Steven Hassan's books and listened to many of his talks/interviews, and they have helped me a lot. I never saw an OSA "dead agent" pack when I was still in (maybe because I was very well insulated from the outside world and didn't ask a lot of prying questions), but near the end when I was getting out, a friend I confided in tried to convince me to go in and ask OSA for those folders to address the concerns I had. He was a second gen who had been in even longer than me by a few decades and he acted like it was just a normal everyday thing to do. Never mind that my concerns were about OSA itself stalking ex members, using confessionals as blackmail, printing fliers with personal info revealed in session, following and intimidating people, bugging offices, etc. I'm sure OSA will be a fair and impartial critic of themselves...
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Love Love x 1
    • List
  19. wogwog

    wogwog Patron

    Can someone tell me what the Golden Age of Tech II added to the already mind numbing tedium that was the first GAT? I never saw the event announcing it and I have not been in a course room in a long time.

    Also, is it true SP declare golden rods are not displayed on bulletin boards any more and that even the people being declared don't get copies? I remember standing around that board during course breaks and marveling at the wall of mustard paper and wondering how so many SPs were lurking everywhere.