'Reverse auditing' - how does it work?

Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by Carmel, Oct 25, 2008.

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  1. Carmel

    Carmel Crusader

    I am still puzzled as to how 'reverse auditing' has the affect that it does have or can have, AND where it came from in the first place.

    Someone who hasn't been subjected to it, could easily write it off as something that one would/could only go effect of if they were already in an unstable emotional state.

    From my experience that's not or not necessarily true - although it IS something I have told myself for years (and even still do at times) after being subjected to it. When I try to look at it rationally, I think things like;
    - they were only questions
    - I didn't even trust the 'auditor'
    - I had absolutely no respect or trust in the individuals who ordered it and were monitoring it
    - I was aware that what the 'auditor' was doing was wrong
    - these people had long ago sold their souls
    - I wasn't a worthless piece of shit
    - I didn't have any agenda, other than what I had already put on the table
    - I had flaws and faults, but my intentions weren't to harm by any means

    So, why the fu'k did I buy it or fall prey to it, and then be so adversely affect of it for years? And why still do I go into a guilt trip if and when I let myself dwell on it? It's a weird one for sure!

    On the one had, I can introvert up my arse over it and have to stop myself 'self listing' on it (I still have some case crap to deal with), but on the other hand from an objective point of view - I find it interesting and am curious about it.

    After posting about my experience with it on this board, much was answered for me and much was handled. I've also had a friend or two on this board help me spot stuff, that I hadn't previously. However, I'm still a bit bloody stumped somewhat about it and there are still things I want to know.

    - Who the hell thought of it in the first place?
    - Did they think it up and start employing it as a practice to actually introvert someone to the point of insanity, or did they just stumble across it when 'investigating' and trying to find and/or 'weed out' the SP's?
    - What's the big deal actually? Like how can it have such an adverse affect on someone who knows the score?
    - How can individuals who have obviously sold their soul, and who are obviously in a valence/identity that one can penetrate and expose relatively easily - have such an adverse affect on another who can see right through them?
    - What's the cummulative affect of; the 'auditor', the raving loony missionaires; the OSA operatives; the DM the mission ops; the fellow scientologists all in fear or hiding; etc, etc, etc? As individuals they are NOTHING to fear, but cummulatively they can become such an impinging evil force of quite a different nature. As an analogy, despite how many tons of poison berries you might put together - ya still wouldn't end up with a big mac truck! To me the individuals are like the poisen berries, but somehow their cummulative affect (the CofS) creates the big mac truck! (Geez - I'm sounding a bit like a loony here, myself! :nervous: )
    - The guilt trip that follows and the self listing like "Did they have good reason to think of me the way they did?", "Why did they do that to ME?" - where does that all stem from? Like, is it the from the action itself or the mere fact of the action being done?
    - When 'case' wasn't something that tended to stick around in one's universe or cause introversion for very long - how come the 'case' on this one does?

    I obviously can't see the wood for the trees on this one, and it is irritating to say the least. In addition to that, it's beyond my comprehension how a trained auditor could ever go along with doing that to another and also I still can't believe that I allowed myself to be subjected to it in the first place! :grouch:

    I'm asking for data - there's obviously something that I'm still not seeing or spotting regarding this. :confused2: Many would say "just forget about it" - but that 'don't' work for me! :no: (I'm not very good at letting go of anything if I don't understand it)

    Thanks,
    Carmel
     
  2. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    You're not the only one who missed spotting this one Carmel.

    I just posted about this anti-scn/anti-spiritual freedom on another thread http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=8275&page=10 but here's something for you to look at in addition to what I said there.

    Here's how it works;

    Do you recall doing a certain Training Drill where you eventually get so good at it that you reach a point of commanding "Stand Up!" whilst INTENDING "Sit down in that chair!"? Where you command "Sit down.. etc" whilst INTENDING "Stand Up!"?

    It trains the person that INTENTION has nothing to do with words and one can easily confirm that this is so by doing this drill on live people. If the intention is IN then the words are irrelevant. I know you've done this drill to full EP so it should be real to you.

    That's how it works, it's not what was said to you or asked of you, it's the INTENTION behind the words.

    Some critic-handlers and "auditors" have been thoroughly trained in the use of this technique.

    Some Auditors have been duped into using Black Scn by others who gave them the intention of the session before it began.

    Real Auditors always know it's an overt of magnitude and refuse to do it, lest it haunt them forever after.

    It's effective to varying degrees, the more in-the-loop and INTENTIONAL the perpetrator the better it works.

    I've seen the results of its use and protested them repeatedly.

    It was tried on me but I spotted it and handled it.

    It's just one of the reasons I'm no longer a scn'ist.

    Look for what was INTENDED rather than what was said!

    THAT will lead you to the resolution to any residual upset.
     
  3. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    I have asked myself similar questions, although I have not been subjected to reverse auditing myself as far as I know.

    We say "Well it's just some questions and we don't have to agree with them or the process" etc.

    I think that we need to realize that in life people do NOT deliberately set out to drive you insane. We are so used to this that we think that communication itself cannot in the end be terribly damaging.
    But if you think about it all of us constantly (unconciously) monitor our interractions. People can get crappy and angry etc but that is usually the person dealing with their own emotions, not a plan to drive you mad. So we don't realise how easy it might be to drive someone mad if we set out to do it.

    Think about dysfunctional families, and one or both parents who have strange ways of communicating with their kid(s). When you see it you totally expect a kid who is subjected to that to end up apparently warped (amazingly they survive much better than expected sometimes - but might not without their teachers etc to act as role models.

    Have you ever been driven half mad by someone who has very bad communication skills? It feels really abusive after awhile, even if it is not intentional on the part of the perpertrator.
    So if someone knows damn well what completely violates humans expectations and needs in communication, they can distill it and use it in a concentrated form.
    I suppose someone could get better and better at not "going effect" of reverse auditing with some sort of training. But we have never expected such viciousness so have not gotten ourselves prepared.
     
  4. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Part of the trap is convincing a person that a "case" exists at all, and that there is only one way it can be "handled". Just that simple thing, repeated often enough and long enough has a person examining every thought and emotion they have. Also being told that it is not okay to "self audit" (think for yourself) and that if you are upset then there is something wrong with you, opens the door for allowing another to dictate thoughts and opinions. One of the most liberating things I learned here was the ability to experience and let go of emotions, really experience them and not self judge. Cry...laugh...giggle...get angry and let them go. After this becomes something you can do with ease, it also becomes easy to spot the intentions of another to make you judge yourself harshly again, which is the end product of things like reverse auditing. IMO.
     
  5. KnightVision

    KnightVision Gold Meritorious Patron


    Very sharp of you! I like this, agreed.

    I want to marry you now... gosh... :happydance:
     
  6. HappyGirl

    HappyGirl Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wow. I have had similar questions. I wondered how I could go so effect when I was aware of how bogus they were? How did I fall prey to it and have it affect me so adversely for years? I also wondered why I introverted on it and went into a guilt trip if I let myself dwell on it. I was unable to "just forget about it" also.

    For me, I started changing my focus. Actually, I did that just to survive, not to get these questions answered. I was keyed in ALL THE TIME. I couldn't get free of the horror of it. When I started paying attention to what my attention was focused on (a lot of work!), very slowly what I would think about changed. I would think, "I'm terrified, I feel like I'm gonna die," etc. and I just focused on almost anything else that had life in it. This was by no means overnight. It was a very gradual process that I had to work very hard at. The more “now” moments I paid attention to, the more peaceful I felt, and the less obsessive my thoughts were. Gradually I became more in control of my mind and thoughts.

    My moment of clarity came when I realized viscerally that the world changed depending on what I was focused on. I had heard “wise” concepts before, but insight evaded me until I experienced for myself my own life unfolding exactly in the way I was thinking about it. There was a point that I realized it was my own obsessive focus that was causing me to introvert. It was a vicious cycle - I put myself in my own grave, and all I could think about was this grave I was in, so that was all I could experience. I was only able to dig myself out by focusing on things outside of that grave, until gradually I was “outside.” The answer for me was that I went effect because I expected to go effect. I dug myself out of the hole literally by changing what I focused on.

    I also was aware that these people had long ago sold their souls, etc., and I also saw through them. But it was being aware of it that caused me to focus on it. After working on what I put my attention on for a while, I realized that the only reason I ever had a case was because I mocked it up myself. I expected to have a case, I expected it to be full of danger and could harm me. If that isn’t what I expected, how could I get rid of it and have wins? That’s the way I became hypnotized - I changed my own mind, my own mental habits. The only reason I woke up every day wishing I was dead was because I was only focusing on how “out-tech” and “out-ethics” I was, and how all I could hope for and expect out of life was to be policed and harangued by Flag until I handled the case that I didn’t really have. I bought into that because… I bought into that. Because that’s what I expected and focused on. That’s why this board is so important to me, because it changed my focus from being total effect of CoS to “my god, they are the ones that are on the run now! I have nothing to fear from them.” My expectation went from total fear of them to expecting them to soon be gone from the planet.

    The answer for me of how and why I went effect was that I focused on going effect. When I started focusing on other things, the hold that CoS had on me became less and less, and eventually I found this board. Does that make sense? I hope so. I don’t know if this will be an answer to you or helpful to you, but I hope so.
     
  7. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    Makes sense to me. BTW, you just voiced the Clear Cog. Go to the head of the class.
     
  8. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Excellent Happy Girl! :happydance: :happydance:

    And to think - you didn't even have to do the "Bridge" to have that so called cog! :D :duh:
     
  9. HappyGirl

    HappyGirl Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes!!! Words don't communicate, only intention! :clap: :clap: :clap:

    :omg: Hahahaha!!!

    I continue to have this cog over and over!! We all created a reason to get on the Bridge and that's the only reason we got on it. Others looked at it and thought "WTF would I want that?!" and didn't. :duh:
     
  10. Neo

    Neo Silver Meritorious Patron

    And what a cognition that one is. Unfortunately I didn't have that one. But after 4 and a half years of Scientology I had the "WTF did I want that?" cognition. Unfortunately you have to try Scientology to get that cog, so I recommend your one.

    Neo
     
  11. MarkWI

    MarkWI Patron Meritorious

    LRH was aware of the possibility to use the tech to control people since he wrote about Black Dianetics in DMSMH. Too bad he made full use of it later.

    "Tell me how you couldn't possibly help anybody" LRH say as a reverse command that an evil auditor may ask. Auditing works by changing ideas in the PC's mind. You can make him happy by having him cogniting about abilities, and reverse him by having him overwhelmed by his disabilities.

    Comm cycle is powerfull too. A good comm cycle makes you happy and feel understood. A bad comm cycle produces a dirty needle and leaves you upset and downtone.

    "It is totally okay to push them down into apaty because only we can pull them up" LRH (Quoted by memory from "The story of Diantecs and Scientology", LRH referring to Psichiatry)

    M
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  12. EP - Ethics Particle

    EP - Ethics Particle Gold Meritorious Patron

    The essential question(s)...

    Hey Carmel,

    I think I understand what you are looking for here, but I do not really have the data. :unsure: However, surely others on this board do - or new folks coming out may as well! So it should pay off to keep asking. :yes:

    I would offer that, for you, this is similar to cleaning out a closet - some folks are satisfied with leaving the odd tie or shirt hangin' there still. Others, like you (I suspect) :coolwink: are not satisfied until everything is out, the floor swept and the walls painted! :melodramatic: I have a Sr C/S at home who is that way and I know the nature of the beast. :D :thumbsup:

    Love,

    Mike
     
  13. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Actually, not.

    Paul
     
  14. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    On just this one point, maybe it is like that e-meter drill of dirtying and cleaning the needle. The coach knows exactly what is going to happen and why - or at least, should know! - but still his needle gets dirtied up every time his comm is cut by the student, and goes clean when the student fixes it properly.

    Paul
     
  15. EP - Ethics Particle

    EP - Ethics Particle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Made right!

    Thank you Paul, for this post. From reading Carmel's experiences with reverse auditing and horrifed by the mere fact that such was ever done; while talking to a friend who is beginning to look and doubt, I told this person the following:

    "If any of "them" ever hand you the cans and you hear the words "I am not auditing you" - promise me that you will put down the cans and fight your way out of there if you have to."

    This post validates and makes clear, to me, the soundness of the advice I gave.

    Others may want to give similar advice/instruction for the reason you state above.

    Roy, the EP's EP
     
  16. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    snipped "The answer for me was that I went effect because I expected to go effect. I dug myself out of the hole literally by changing what I focused on."

    Actually, yes. There was more in there about having mocked it all up, but I don't need to be hit over the head when people express a cog.
     
  17. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    Wow, FTS, :goodposting: :hifive: :hug:

     
  18. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I've technically not had reverse auditing. However 2 + intensives on a CCRD after some doubts on clear were the most traumatic incident this lifetime, and probably many. Eventually I got told wasn't clear after loads of different non CCRD auditing that I kept protesting. After agreeing to " not clear", the next day couldn't stck to that, and said I was. C/S then agreed
    I was clear. Next action was ....an A-J check! The action after that a PDH check on a spurious visit to a child psychologist because I was naughty, aged 3. Previously handled, actually not charged, so I asked why I needed to deal with this again. I was told I may have been PDHed, and was there with my mum! Thats when I left COS.

    Implanting would be reverse auditing. As would any wrong indication
    iether intentionally or otherwise given.

    From the PDC lectures LRH comments that creative processing can in minutes handle implants. Perhaps get someone to run some on you with regard to this after a D of P to get some idea of what commands to mock up?
     
  19. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    I attested to Clear, but I never had this cognition.
     
  20. EP - Ethics Particle

    EP - Ethics Particle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Now I am curious!!!

    [/B]