Should disconnection be criminalized?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Mimsey Borogrove, Jan 21, 2018.

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  1. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I was over at Tony's site this morning and John P had an interesting post about the criminal nature of disconnection:

    John P. • 7 hours agaIn a new blog post this morning at my blog, financial crime expert Dr. Jeff Wasel suggests that we may want to expand the way we think about disconnection. We already know it's a repugnant and vile practice that splits apart families, often cruelly severing parents from their children. It may also cause Scientologists working for a newly ex-member to quit without notice, crippling a business. Dr. Wasel thinks we might want to look at disconnection as a financial crime, with a thinly veiled threat of extortion or blackmail hanging over anyone who is considering leaving or throttling back their donations to the cult.

    https://tonyortega.org/2018/01/21/s...s-people-to-spread-its-propaganda/#more-45342

    So I went to his page and am posting a few gems of the many there:

    "The Ecclasiatical Protection Racket, or “Gee, That’s a Nice Family You Have There… Shame if Something Happened to It.”
    This exercise is undertaken in a manner and behavior that closely resembles the crime of extortion, and by extension, blackmail in many instances, rather than anything remotely ecclesiastical. Extortion is defined as:
    money or property by threat to a victim’s property or loved ones, intimidation, or false claim of a right (such as pretending to be an IRS agent). It is a felony in all states, except that a direct threat to harm the victim is usually treated as the crime of robbery."

    "The Threat of Economic Havoc Is Real and Significant
    Disconnection has a singularly disproportionate effect on business owners, particularly those tied into WISE (World Institute of Scientology Enterprises, an operation to spread Hubbard’s “management tech” into businesses in exchange for sizable royalties).
    For instance a Scientology restaurant owner, who may be facing an ethics action, may receive a visit from a few of the boys who emphatically mention that his waiters may quit, should he decide to leave Scientology. He goes, they all go. Very few business could withstand the loss of a large percentage of their employees and eventual revenue stream. Contrast this with an old school brick through the window, and the underlying malice is clear as day."

    http://www.johnpcapitalist.com/2018/01/scientology-disconnection-cross-line-criminal-behavior/

    Maybe the practice should be criminalized. I think though the church is leery of threatening businesses - remember the "major flap" about one of the exes who sued his ( dentist ? Chiro?) over refusing service - I no longer recall the specifics - but the church doesn't want to get dragged into a lawsuit so they tend to be more lenient. That is a tar baby they want to avoid.

    And you see a parallel with Ton and Katie Cruise - every once in a while his lack of Suri time becomes major tabloid news - but it is simply evidence of his disconnection. His actions speak louder than any disconnection letter. Can you imagine the hell if such a letter ever became public knowledge? Talk about economic havoc.

    But! But! Will he resurface when she turns 18? Ohooo Nooo:faceslap:

    Mimsey
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
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  2. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

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  3. Wants2Talk

    Wants2Talk Silver Meritorious Patron

    Here Here!
     
  4. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    .

    Interesting subject.

    I haven't read the linked materials, but I would guess that one of the points raised (in disconnection of employees, clients, business associates) is that of RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION.

    Personally, I am not a fan of recent court rulings that safeguard the rights of one protected group--whilst infringing upon and negating the rights of less-favored groups. The case involving the Christian cake maker who was FORCED to create a cake for a gay wedding (against their religious beliefs). The fallout was horrific for the Christian cake maker, as I recall.

    The power of a supposed "non denominational religion" (Scientology, so it claims) to financially destroy any parishioner who disagrees, disaffects or departs, is instant and brutal. A lifetime's worth of effort to build a small business can be wiped out with a single piece of goldenrod paper, bearing the word "SP". In fact, it need not even be printed, it may only be a dead-agent, disconnection campaign on social media--alerting Scientologists in good standing to instantly DISCONNECT from the accused SP (even if there has never been a trial, tribunal, com ev, ethics investigation or even a single KR. People can be destroyed if they dare to commit the abominable sin of "thinking for themselves"---the same ability that the church sells them for not less than $500,000.

    I'd rather just let the COS desert & destroy their beloved comrades (Scientologists) so that they figure out more quickly that Scientology is a cruel avaricious hoax. Why stop the cult from destroying itself from within? I hate to evaluate or invalidate the cult when they finally have a genuine up-statistic (# of Scientologists quietly disposed of without sorrow).

    .
     
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  5. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    Interesting idea, but since the church "officially" denies the policy of disconnection, it would have to be proven it exists. Maybe not so hard, but....

    I guess it could leave individual members open to court proceedings, thereby protecting the mothership. I am in no way any kind of expert on US laws, so could this be possible?
     
  6. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    "I haven't read the linked materials, but I would guess that one of the points raised (in disconnection of employees, clients, business associates) is that of RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION." No - the article is about the tortuous effects of disconnection or threat of same.

    If you think about it - the threat of exposing your secrets divulged in session is a form of blackmail.

    Threats abound in scientology - leave the church and leave your family behind, leave and you lose all the money you have on account. Leave and all your business's staff leave, and your business bankrupts. Or your clientèle evaporates. Look what happened to Debbie Cook's business after her famous email went viral - her income crashed when she lost all of her scio clientèle.

    Is that not classic extortion? A specialty of the Mafia and many other criminal groups?

    I would love to get all the money I gave the IAS back. They flat out lied about how it was going to be used to handle drug addiction, the psychs etc. How many hair-raising lies did the IAS reges tell in their "briefings" to get money from the public? Staff working for peanuts while the SO sits on billions?

    When you look at their operation - it is blatantly criminal. It has nothing to do with religious discrimination. That, BTW is their defense. I had a vendor that was a scio company. When they decided they didn't want me on their lines - they must have been coached to not bring up any hint of religious discrimination as a justification for their action, because the "disconnection" email they sent me avoided that like the plague. The had other BS tortured logic why I should take my business elsewhere, that made no sense whatsoever. Really, what business turns away it's public? Only a scio one (or the cake maker)

    The baker's problem is that they were stupid in how they handled the issue by their giving a discriminatory reason to refuse to bake a cake for the 2 gay men. For instance, they could have sent them to to another baker to bake the cake, tell them to pay the money to the other baker when the cake was ready? Simply say he is handling their over flow? It never would have become the can of worms it became, and their consciouses would be clean because they didn't get involved. But no.

    Anyway - they are involved in blackmail or extortion if someone could prove it.

    Mimsey
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  7. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist


    For this particular item:
    If the parents are divorced, and the child is underage, then there is the legal issue of "custodial interference" (disconnection).
    Interfering with child custody is illegal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  8. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor


    I like your post. But I think you misunderstood what I meant by "RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION".

    I am saying that the Church of Scientology is blatantly discriminating against Scientologists who have chosen another religion besides Scientology. The moment someone disaffects or (gasp!) blows, they are defacto subscribing to DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS than Scientology.

    They may become Christian (another religion, right?). They may have become Indie Scn (another religion, right?) Or, they may have become an amalgam of agnostic-I-don't-know-lets-wait-and-see-what-I-believe-when-I-get-some-more-proof-ISM. The point is that Scientology discriminates against the ex-Scientologist whom they call an SP. But the person doesn't call themselves an SP, they label themselves by whatever their NEW BELIEF SYSTEM is. That new belief, whether it's a formally organized and recognized religion or not is ANOTHER religion than Scientology.

    Thus, when Scientology fair games them, creates hate websites against them, dead agents them on social media, gets their family, workers, clients, customers, vendors, co-workers and bosses to disconnect from them---that is absolutely religious discrimination for believing in something other than Scientology.

    See what I mean, Mims?

    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    No.

    Good ole Mimsey, always thinkin' of some new way to look at things and this is a fine question to raise and it should not close discussion to note the direct answer to the question as stated is rapid and definitive...

    No.

    Not in America. One of the FIVE rights established in the First Amendment is freedom of association which one does not have unless one has freedom of disassociation
     
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  10. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Disconnection is not about "freedom of disassociation". It is about an organization using undue influence (often combined with libel, slander, and blackmail) to compel disassociation.
     
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  11. Bill

    Bill Silver Meritorious Patron

    While that is quite true, "disconnection" could not be criminalized. Everyone involved (except for the victim) would swear it was all "voluntary". And "technically" they would be correct.

    We were told to disconnect from my brother. We refused. See? "Voluntary". Our Scientology friends "voluntarily" disconnected from us. Employers found that our work was ... unacceptable ... and let us go. All "voluntarily". To criminalize disconnection would not be possible because of this.

    I'm as opposed to disconnection as anyone but I believe the only way to abolish disconnection is to abolish Scientology.
     
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  12. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Patron Meritorious

    Yes.

    As I myself know all too well.

    And this is a thing not in the least confined to Co$. My former mate married her old boyfriend, a Roman Catholic whose hatred of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard is a match for the worst to be found on this board and he hs successfully blocked all communication with my sons since 1980.

    It is in fact a normal and usual practice of American Jurisprudence; a judge often makes as a condition of parole disassociation with former cronies.

    Thus, though "Disconnection" may be coerced it yet cannot be criminalized per se

    That's the question o the OP; should "Disconnection" be criminalized?

    No.

    Disconnection is in fact a legitimate aspect of treatment and counseling. The battered spouse or child who ain't gonna get better until they are off the hook with mate parent etc.

    But certainly Co$ engages in rotten disconnect thus this thread has plenty of play in it but...

    No.

    Disconnection cannot be criminalized
     
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  13. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Surely the CoS (Crimewave of Scientology) is at times guilty of extortion and blackmail and in cases where it can be proven they should be criminally prosecuted for it. I agree with the financial crime expert, Dr. Wasel!:yes:
     
  14. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I've often wondered how much damage it does (long term) to the person that chooses to disconnect from a (presumably once) loved one ... I doubt they get to just walk away scot-free if the only reason they did it was because of the ice cold scientology culture of fast and efficient disposal of any and all irritants or even if due to the direct and threatening influence of an "ethics officer" ... I suspect the person that chooses to disconnect from family will eventually pay in some way, emotionally.

    It's shocking when you are the person who is disconnected from and it takes a while to get over it (perhaps you never do if you loved the person) but you can't criminalise it.

    A decision was made and acted upon ... you can't force an adult to disconnect, you can certainly "encourage" and indoctrinate but in the end no-one can make them do it ... I don't include children or even young adults in that damning assessment, they can of course be forced to do things that may not be in their best interest by manipulative and exploitative scientologists but I still don't feel it can be criminalised.
     
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  15. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    Should following any hubbard policy be criminalized?
     
  16. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    That would be manifestly unconstitutional, because the accused has the inalienable right to confront their accuser.

    I sent an email to the US government advising them of this. By their lack of reply, we can be assured that they did not have any disagreement.

    This morning, I sent them a followup email laying out specific strategic and tactical advice on extraditing Ron from Target II.



    ps: I am extremely confident that my emails are being read by the US government and classified as confidential. This is another reason that we have not gotten any acknowledgement---they are not stupid, they are not going to just send top secret data through the post office! But, just to double check, I want to ask if anyone knows a better e-mail address for the US government. Up to this point, I have been sending everything to my local post office with a large bold headline at the top that reads: "FORWARD TO THE US GOVERNMENT". These people have real knowingness how to route things, I get my mail every day!


    .
     
  17. JackStraw

    JackStraw Silver Meritorious Patron

    Heck, haven't most of us ESMBers disconnected from scn, DM, Yingling, Puow...?

    I, personally enjoy my right to disconnect from people who , to use the common parlance, suck.:forsure:

    Coercion, extortion & blackmail are already against the law. Disconnection, in and of itself isn't and shouldn't be.IMHO.

    Jack
     
  18. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    I don't believe it's the Government that is causing the delays. If ron would answer HIS emails, but then again when has that ever happened.
     
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  19. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    See, that's your problem - he has a telex machine on target 2, not a fax. Out admin= liability.

    Mimsey
     
  20. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Gold Meritorious Sponsor

    Wouldn't it be a hilarious (and revealing) documentary to go around surveying (on hidden cam) things like:

    WHAT IS YOUR REALITY ON WHERE
    RON IS NOW, HOW HE IS DOING
    AND WHAT HE IS DOING?

    There are rare occasions when the world gets to peek inside the UNFILTERED mind of a real Scientologist, to see what they are really thinking behind the glossy eyes and frozen grin. I think this might be a typical answer:​


    BILLY BLOWDOWN:
    "Well.... how is Ron doing? Fantastic!
    Totally Fantastic!!!!


    SURVEYOR
    But, isn't Ron dead?


    BILLY BLOWDOWN
    Dead? LOL. That's a total false data
    concept by the psychs. Ron is
    doing fantastic! By the way
    he's researching advanced levels.


    SURVEYOR
    ...and you know this how?


    BILLY BLOWDOWN
    Oh, I was given an r-factor about it.


    SURVEYOR
    ...and r-factors are always true?


    BILLY BLOWDOWN
    Absolutely! That's why they are called
    reality factors. Because it's reality.
    You should really look up the
    word reality and use it in
    sentences until you
    feel good about it.


    .
     
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