Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berry

Discussion in 'MartyWorld' started by Caroline, Jun 16, 2012.

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  1. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    On June 3, 2012, Gerry and I published a short video containing a couple of clips from an interview German filmmaker Markus Thoess did of Mike Rinder for the recently aired OSA documentary. Thoess gave Gerry the clips and authorized him to publish them because they show Rinder black PRing Gerry and Graham Berry.

    Scientologists, apparently using Ursula Caberta, pressured Thoess to go against Gerry, otherwise the "truth" they know about Biggi Reichert's death would not be brought out. This pressure resulted in Thoess making a copyright infringement claim, which we believe was made in bad faith, and YouTube removed the video.

    We have now just posted Gerry's declaration in support of a counter-notification to Youtube: http://www.gerryarmstrong.ca/archives/312
     
  2. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    :hmm:

    So....it kind of looks like M & M are still working for the CoS under black ops....?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
  3. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    Good question, FoTi. Gerry provided this insight in his description to the removed video:

     
  4. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    The clips of Mike Rinder attacking Gerry and Graham are very important proof of black PR against them.

    While I fully understand and agree with Gerry's reply to youtube, I think this would not have evolved into a compright take down request if Gerry had take just taken the guy's name off the video until August, as the guy asked.

    Because this concerns the guy's investigative filming on Biggi's death, Mike Laws must be involved. I'd like to hear from him here on why the guy was pressured to get Gerry to take down the video.
     
  5. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    According to the account, if I understand correctly, Gerry did remove it.

     
  7. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    Hi AnonyMary,
    We did remove the credit to Mr. Thoess on 8 June, exactly as he had requested, and Gerry let him know of this by e-mail on the same day.

    Despite our compliance and written notification, and with no intervening communication from Mr. Thoess, he made a copyright infringement claim, and YT took down the video on 12 June.

    This is a factor in Gerry's position that the copyright infringement claim was pursued in bad faith, as he explained.

     
  8. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    According to the program video (on WWP), "Mike Rinder made conditions: Skeptical questions about the cult founder Hubbard are taboo."

    Apparently, the take down of the YouTube video clip was another condition.
     
  9. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    Yes, that's apparently the case, Veda, although we don't know if Rinder was the person communicating that condition through Ursula Caberta to Markus Thoess. Rathbun might be Caberta's handler among the "independent" Scientologists. Rinder is certainly still working on his OSA/Department 20 VFP ("Valuable Final Product"): "HANDLED SITUATIONS WHICH RESULT IN THE TOTAL ACCEPTANCE OF SCIENTOLOGY AND ITS FOUNDER THROUGHOUT THE AREA."

    All Scientologists, "independent" or "dependent," work to achieve that VFP. Gerry wrote in his declaration:
    Scientologists can only achieve this VFP, obviously, by lying about Scientology and its founder throughout the area, and by suppressing or removing the truth, which requires suppressing and fair gaming the SPs.

    Gerry also wrote:

     
  10. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    Thanks, Caroline. My error. I agree completely.

    As I said before, the one man who spearheaded an investigation into Biggi's death is Mike Laws, her ex boyfriend. Mike is tight with M&M, though he says he's not an Indie. We nead to hear from him as he would certainly know what is up with this fair gaming against Gerry. And the producer, too, to corner him into doing this.

    It's a form of extortion
     
  11. Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    Markus Thoess says:
    June 17, 2012 at 3:33 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Gerry,

    I can not believe how much time you have !

    This is really stupid.

    You should have asked me B E F O R E you put MY NAME in the Internet for your benefit !

    I do so others do so .

    There will be another OSA Film soon containing more countries.

    After all this, I have removed all Material of you in this Film.

    You did very great in destroying my contacts to other people.
    Neither Mike Rinder nor Marty Rathbun are having anything to do with my current project.

    I am not a Scientology Critic. I am a Filmmaker. STOP Involving me in the WAR between Critics that work with this TOPIC since 20 years.


    Good luck with your private WAR. This War for you seems to be more important than anything else in your life.

    Very, Very poor.

    Think of the family of this dead woman who did want to learn the truth.



    OSA will thank you for what you have done.

    Berlin, 17.6.2012
    Markus Thoess
     
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    What a B.S. response. This person has been coached ("talked to"). It appears as though removing Gerry Armstrong from the film was a condition for the further participation of Rathbun&Rinder. I wouldn't be surprised if they decide not to participate anyway, as my impression is that Rinder didn't much trust or like Thoess. Rathbun&Rinder may be simply "jerking his chain."
     
  13. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    Actually this guy makes some very good points that it would do well for a few of the more strident critics to consider.

    First, arguably the vast majority of people on the planet are not terribly interested in waging a war against scientology. An attitude which requires 'you are either with us or against us' is no more attractive coming from a critic of scientology than it is coming from a member in good standing of the church. There is in fact no difference between such appeals except the justifications used by the individuals involved.

    Crusaders always believe their cause is holy, unbelievers are infidels, and such must either be converted or else they lie beyond hope of redemption. Same piffle, different causes. :eyeroll:

    Second, information is not inherently polemical. In fact those sources serve best which simply present the available information without resorting to emotional suasion. Attempting to coopt information sources as a propaganda channel for private wars simply alienates those who are not naturally opposed. They quite rightly see their efforts thus being diverted to serve some purpose extraneous to their own. That is not a way to win friends or influence people. At least not in a 'positive' way.

    When offering information to an independent source it is best to offer simple facts without including stridently partisan material and don't boast about how they are being used to 'get the word out'. Of course, all that is simply good manners.


    Mark A. Baker
     
  14. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    I assume you read the relevant background material, so I can only surmise, since you are not a stupid person, that you are being dishonest.

    Perhaps Caroline will post again on this thread and further clarify matters.

    I, for one, have no interest in arguing with you.
     
  15. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    Well, I would have to say that MOST people, if given honest and accurate information about the Church of Scientology, would feel some distaste and disgust at how it does what it does, while lying and deceiving at every step along the way.

    "War against scientology". What does that even mean? The subject of Scientology? A local church of Scientology? A book about Scientology? A staff member at some mission of Scientology?

    There is no such thing as "scientology" without some qualifier - at least not as anything other than some VERY vague abstract IDEA.

    Point to "scientology". It can't be done because there is no such thing. Not outside the imagination of some person's mind.

    Without some sort of a qualifier, it does not exist in the physical universe! Not anywhere.

    Just as you cannot point to a "christianity". It is a horrendously ABSTRACT idea, doesn't actually exist anywhere "out there", and people who talk and wallow in these lofty mental high-level generalizations are victims of their own "think".

    There might be a "member" of some branch of Christianity. Or a ritual of Christianity. Or, a child born into some version of Christianity. But, the word "Christianity" is always and only a mental creation - an abstract idea.

    The same with "scientology".

    Now Hubbard tried to define and make "scientology" exist as somethig other than an abstract idea, but that was ONLY trickery.

    From Wikipedia on Abstraction:

    "Thinking in abstractions is considered to be one of the key traits in modern human behaviour, which is believed to have developed between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, probably before the modern human exodus from Africa. Its development is likely to have been closely connected with the development of human language, which (whether spoken or written) appears to both involve and facilitate abstract thinking."

    "In philosophical terminology, abstraction is the thought process wherein ideas[3] are distanced from objects."

    "Abstraction is a process by which higher concepts are derived from the usage and classification of literal ("real" or "concrete") concepts, first principles, or other methods. "An abstraction" is the product of this process – a concept that acts as a super-categorical noun for all subordinate concepts, and connects any related concepts as a group, field, or category.

    "Abstractions may be formed by reducing the information content of a concept or an observable phenomenon, typically to retain only information which is relevant for a particular purpose. For example, abstracting a leather soccer ball to the more general idea of a ball retains only the information on general ball attributes and behavior, eliminating the other characteristics of that particular ball."
     
  16. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    I think the war being referred to is that amongst critics.
    Markus makes a valid point, IMO.
     
  17. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    Sometimes I think people here would rather fight with each other than with the cult. After years of pissing on each other, you know each other so well. You have grown to hate/love each other more than anything else in your lives.

    This is not the way to live. It is not the way to survive a cult experience. You are embracing the cult within your tombs and hiding from life.

    You will not type your way to freedom or happiness. Get out of here and do something with your lives. Grow vegetables. Get a pet. Climb a hill. Say hello to someone.

    Leave.

    TG1
     
  18. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    I'm sorry to say that Markus is being played like a cheap harmonica by the outside the CofS Scientologists, and by those under their sway.
     
  19. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    That's not it at all. Unfortunately you don't understand.
     
  20. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Re: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berr

    I alerted Gerry about both your post to ESMB, and your comment on Gerry's blog. Obviously your communications at this point in this matter are very important, and are being analyzed publicly. So even little changes between versions of communications are worthy of notice and discussion, and have a place in the record. Gerry will respond to the ESMB post, because it is the more complete of the two versions.

    I want to respond too.

    Contrary to the double curve that you have embraced and are forwarding, Gerry really does have other things that are more important in life, even than defending himself against fair game, which is what this is all about.

    A double curve is like when the Scientologists kill Lisa McPherson, destroy evidence, and then sue Lisa's family. Here, they killed Biggi Reichert, hurt the family, plus used that fact to fair game Gerry.

    Anyone should be respectful of Gerry's defense in this matter. His articulate, reasoned, accurate, well-supported sworn testimony, that any attorney getting involved in a copyright infringement case, or perhaps some other kind of case, would be glad to get, not only does not deserve your comment, but you black PR Gerry for that astonishing product, and judge it very, very poor.

    It frightens me when I see such double curving. I feel shocked and threatened by it.

    Anyway, I'm sure Gerry will answer as soon as possible.