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The McPherson Issue

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
In the Reitmann book, there was something about her care givers deciding to bathe her, and that she "shit herself" as they were moving her to the tub. Reitmann then said something about how this doctor she consulted said that the sphincter could relax when someone is on the verge of dying.

Of course, this version of events did not involve a foot locker, so maybe the people she interviewed were lying about that. Since she broke bread with Marty's camp to get this version of events, maybe they have a third version of the story that is slightly more damning to DM but keeps other peoples' hands clean enough to make it seem like a well meaning fuckup by people too scared to think for themselves, but more closely implicate the Dwarf.

Do you have an opinion on any of that? I think the last three days of dox missing is suspicious, but the footlocker story and garden variety destruction of evidence could both account for that.

We bought Ron's "shore storys" for years, some a lifetime... I can't blame Ms Reitman for falling for some them as she had been only looking at the scn problem a short time before she started writing about them.
 

Gib

Crusader
Commander Birdsong,

You are overlooking a significant result of the Lisa McPherson case which even without all the above makes it worth remembering.

After it happened, rather than looking at policy changes to prevent this sort of thing happening again, the Church of Scientology's response was to institute the so-called "Lisa McPherson clause" that anyone going to Flag has to sign.

It affirms that the CoS can decide to lock you into a room and starve you to death and tries to minimize the legal recourse you and your family would have in such an event.

My bold above. And I haven't researched all things on this tread and I am educated only a minimal amount by what I have read.

But I sort of connected some dots and concluded that the 3 swing F/N started right after Lisa death. :confused2:
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
We bought Ron's "shore storys" for years, some a lifetime... I can't blame Ms Reitman for falling for some them as she had been only looking at the scn problem a short time before she started writing about them.

Reitman landed an effective blow when she got dox that DM C/S'ed Lisa McPherson.

But yeah, LRH's shore story's were one thing. Now we have a whole new steaming shitpile of Marty shore stories to make sense out of. Every time I think Marty can't surprise me anymore (either for better or worse), he proves me wrong.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Reitman landed an effective blow when she got dox that DM C/S'ed Lisa McPherson.

But yeah, LRH's shore story's were one thing. Now we have a whole new steaming shitpile of Marty shore stories to make sense out of. Every time I think Marty can't surprise me anymore (either for better or worse), he proves me wrong.

I don't recall Reitman claiming to see any 'dox' that DM C/S'd Lisa. I recall only her relaying what she was told by Marty on this. Big difference.

It's not so much that we have new piles of shore stories from Marty. Only variations of the originals because he's not very good at keeping his facts straight, much less documenting the few things he's been willing to tell.
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
ms. wood's finding was at first a blood clot resulting in heart failure and the clot caused by dehydration. she changed that to saying the clot was caused by the minor traffic accident.

I don't think that is at all correct. She changed the cause of death to "accidental" but did not relate this to the traffic accident. That part is the Scientology fiction and doesn't explain the severe dehydration.

A while ago on WWP someone posted calculations based on minimum required intake of fluids and a very generous reading of the logs around her death and just based on what she actually consumed she was into fatal dehydration territory.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
As a person gets more and more dehydrated, the viscosity of the blood increases, making clotting more likely.
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Commander:

A "Never-In" here. This is a fascinating thread; just stumbled upon it. The Lisa McPherson tragedy becomes stranger and more upsetting the more I read about it. Bad enough that it was what it seemed - an overworked, overstressed person having a psychotic break after intensive auditing and other pressures...then being 'treated' by a group of people totally unqualified to handle a psychiatric crisis. Though I always wondered, why would David Miscavige take a personal interest in this one case?

If it indeed was an elaborate gaslighting gone wrong, or an attempt to silence a well-meaning woman with incriminating info...I just shudder. I do wish Marty R would come clean on everything he knows. I'm sure he has remorse and he could probably get immunity. But her family and real friends, above all, deserve answers and closure.

I am interested in your info on the Mittens-Mormon-Scientology connection! Have been ever since he let it slip that "Battlefield Earth" was his favorite novel. Are there more coincidences like that? Please, do tell!

As I understand it, dm had just declared Lisa CLEAR - personally - and I think he did the auditting - or whatever the hell it is, that is done in order to declare that of a person. Then she went bonkers and ended up naked on the streets, begging cops to help her, she needed to talk to someone. She was taken to the hospital, and scnos came and got her out - right away before any psychs could get to her.

DM took a personal interest because she embarrassed him, by going bonkers after he cleared her. The audacicity ! That is who he is, how he operates. These stories abound, of his vindictive retaliations for imagined slights. It's all part of his personality disorder . . .
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re Time of her death.

There was big deal about that. A rather digusting factoid from the autopsy reports revealed that Lisa's - her bowels were empty and clean... her sphincter was relaxed. There was speculation that lisa was quite dead and then her body was warmed in a hot bath tub, at Flag, and only THEN was she driven to the Hospital, after being cleaned up and when her body was close to 98.6..... so it might be determined she had "died 'enroute'."

This was brought to mind after a ZDF documentary revealed other suspicious deaths at Flag, including one German national, an "OT" I believe, who supposedly drown in his bathtub, whose skin had been blistered by scalding hot water...again, speculation that he had 'died elsewhere' and had been warmed up in the tub.. but they must have been in a hurry and used too-hot water?

The people who do these things, to cover up the screw-ups - don't they ever feel guilt and shame for their actions - or lack thereof? Oh wait, for a moment there I forgot - the auditing wipes all that out . . . . And the victims brought it on themselves, they sucked it in. Or whatever that phrase is, that blames the victim.


How on earth do these people live with themselves?
 
Well, all of the case files have been sealed by a mutual consent decree, which was part of the deal for the cash for silence settlement.. and rumors had it pegged at 5.5 million, this figure was determined in part because Bob Minton told me that scientology tried to get that amount out of him, around that same time, to end their litigations with him... this is a pattern of conduct. In RTC vs Lerma, Scn settled with the insurance company of my internet provider, getting a large chunk of change from them, It may have been 500,000 but I dont recall that number. They made an offer and my providers insurance company accepted it despite my providers protests...to settle minutes before losing their trade secret claims in open court, which would have let my provider off the hook completely.. and caused the Washngton Post to WIN outright and scientology had to pay thier attorney costs of 500,000 ALSO Dandar took another wrongful death case a couple of years ago, and tried to introduce evidence from McPherson and got in a big stink cause all that stuff was sealed - by agreement with Dandar, and Dell for the cash

Re 'auditing' - hypnosis works! The dangers of hypnosis in unqualified hands is also documented. IMO using any tool that has been perverted or modified by a madman is foolish.

I dont know anything about Mitt, other than he has the backing of Goldman Sachs et al...I am of the opinion that the Federal government appears to be preparing for a civil war so the outcome may not matter... nope

How would I recognize you? By your voice? Im sorry, Ive spoken to hundreds and hundreds of ex members over the years and due to the privacy concerns and the intense paranoia surrounding this topic, I never took notes.

arnie lerma

-------

Reply to Smurf re Louie Pagliaro,

Louie had taken in a 'homeless guy' a few days before his body was found "chopped into small pieces" and stuffed inside a garbage bag in his living room. I believe Eddie Walters was at one time was a witness for Lawrence Wollersheim in one his many litigations with Scn, one of his affidavits is on Lermanet. Eddie later took some cash to be silent and go away. Ex member Ted Mayett did call Eddie once asking about Louie Pagliario and all Mr Walters said was, "Yeah, Eddie's dead"

Lisa Gibson, - David's wife came to visit for a while and we went over all this stuff and even tried to get the LVPD to reopen the case of her husband David Sandweiss, to no effect.

A canadian activist Gregg Hagglund had a long discussion with the RCMP and one Detective there when asked WHY no one shuts these scumbags down put it this way:

"Who wants to lift the tail of a skunk?"

Thanks for continuing to post Smurf, its good to have someone else here who recalls this stuff and is STILL willing to mention it...

arnie

Oh... I'm reminded of a great Eddie Walters story.... Ill try and find the text to save typing it again.

you would recognize me by name, william birdwood, which i gave you on the phone and use openly on this board and also perhaps by content as much of what we discussed is also on this board.

but...

i know you talk with countless people and i knew it likely you would not remember me although perhaps you would as we had a pretty good talk

also one would tend to think you would record phone conversations...
 
Commander:

A "Never-In" here. This is a fascinating thread; just stumbled upon it. The Lisa McPherson tragedy becomes stranger and more upsetting the more I read about it. Bad enough that it was what it seemed - an overworked, overstressed person having a psychotic break after intensive auditing and other pressures...then being 'treated' by a group of people totally unqualified to handle a psychiatric crisis. Though I always wondered, why would David Miscavige take a personal interest in this one case?

If it indeed was an elaborate gaslighting gone wrong, or an attempt to silence a well-meaning woman with incriminating info...I just shudder. I do wish Marty R would come clean on everything he knows. I'm sure he has remorse and he could probably get immunity. But her family and real friends, above all, deserve answers and closure.

I am interested in your info on the Mittens-Mormon-Scientology connection! Have been ever since he let it slip that "Battlefield Earth" was his favorite novel. Are there more coincidences like that? Please, do tell!

welcome aboard and stay tuned! this could be a very lively thread especially as i am one of the former staff members and sea ogres who is an ardent champion of auditing along with being a professing christian, an ordained member of clergy, a veteran of the U.S. Army, a life long republican and a FUCK WITH IT AND YOU FUCK WITH ME devotee of The Bill of Rights
 
Yes, I've seen those pics, but no one was ever able to explain what might have happened. Thanks for the explanation - it answers a longstanding question of mine.

Those autopsy pics and the Lisa McPherson both make my stomach turn - I decided to bail on the Co$ (Scientology the idea took longer for me to dump) after I realized that was the EP of processing at Flag.

:puke:

ah yes...

lisa's autopsy pics...

this thread should have the very lovely and familiar portrait of lisa elegantly respectfully and tastefully posted as well as some of the various snapshots people have come up with...

however, as author of the OP i request that any poster whose writing alludes to the autopsy photographs post a link to them rather than post the pics themselves on the thread
 

Div6

Crusader
Commander,

Don't know if you have seen this writeup: http://www.upperbridge.org/macp.html from a former Cl XII. I think it gives a a viewpoint of some value.
What happened AFTER her death and how Justice was suborned has never been fully told. Janet Reitman's book does a good job, but is incomplete in details. From what I have been able to glean, even celebrities were involved in some of the flanking actions to get the criminal case to go away.

According to some I have talked to, this was date coincident with DM becoming "unbearable", and the "Hole" at Int becoming the new "standard of degradation". Hell hath no fury like a withhold missed?
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
ah yes...

lisa's autopsy pics...

this thread should have the very lovely and familiar portrait of lisa elegantly respectfully and tastefully posted as well as some of the various snapshots people have come up with...

however, as author of the OP i request that any poster whose writing alludes to the autopsy photographs post a link to them rather than post the pics themselves on the thread

They're all over teh interwebz. I have no need for revisiting the issue. But duly noted - if someone asks about dox for the German, I will only post a link.
 
They're all over teh interwebz. I have no need for revisiting the issue. But duly noted - if someone asks about dox for the German, I will only post a link.

someone might have something to put in on this thread in reference to those photos

yes, they are all over the web. far more than is necessary. and for those intelligent and sensitive readers and posters who might suspect there is a criticism implied, you are right. those postmortem pics are just what they are, clinical and forensic images of a corpse but they are all over the internet in LURID display grossly and grotesquely intended to produce powerful emotional response which the posters proceed to marshal into strong antipathy toward CoS. this is classically sensationalist yellow journalism. those familiar with the basic principles of dianetics will recognize that there is the intention to produce "key-ins" to "locks", "secondaries" and "engrams" and produce a lowered capacity in the "analytical mind" for rational thought

again, some posters on this thread may have pertinent comments in relation to those photographs and are entirely welcome to speak and to provide a link so that readers may if they choose examine evidence

this is an open forum and anyone can put anything on this board or on this thread. if someone puts incindiery writing on this thread i will certainly give a response in accord with the usual and familiar conservative principles with which most educated people are well familiar

now, again, if someone can give this poor decrepit old rip van cyberwinkle some small assistance it would be deeply appreciated if this thread could be graced with the familiar portrait of this lovely and fierce young woman who has so tragically and perhaps maliciously been torn from our midst
 
Commander,

Don't know if you have seen this writeup: http://www.upperbridge.org/macp.html from a former Cl XII. I think it gives a a viewpoint of some value.
What happened AFTER her death and how Justice was suborned has never been fully told. Janet Reitman's book does a good job, but is incomplete in details. From what I have been able to glean, even celebrities were involved in some of the flanking actions to get the criminal case to go away.

According to some I have talked to, this was date coincident with DM becoming "unbearable", and the "Hole" at Int becoming the new "standard of degradation". Hell hath no fury like a withhold missed?

thank you div6. no i haven't seen this before. i just took a quick glance at it and it has substantial material i have not before seen and i will surely read it in full

eventually
 
Commander:

A "Never-In" here. This is a fascinating thread; just stumbled upon it. The Lisa McPherson tragedy becomes stranger and more upsetting the more I read about it. Bad enough that it was what it seemed - an overworked, overstressed person having a psychotic break after intensive auditing and other pressures...then being 'treated' by a group of people totally unqualified to handle a psychiatric crisis. Though I always wondered, why would David Miscavige take a personal interest in this one case?

If it indeed was an elaborate gaslighting gone wrong, or an attempt to silence a well-meaning woman with incriminating info...I just shudder. I do wish Marty R would come clean on everything he knows. I'm sure he has remorse and he could probably get immunity. But her family and real friends, above all, deserve answers and closure.

I am interested in your info on the Mittens-Mormon-Scientology connection! Have been ever since he let it slip that "Battlefield Earth" was his favorite novel. Are there more coincidences like that? Please, do tell!

Or using "the Introspection Rundown" as a way to further invert and silence a whistleblower about some illegal activities her company or bosses plus Scientology Executives were engaged in...per the insurance story.

Evil Cult has a long history of Criminal Actions, from Ron on down to the present day. :no:
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
those postmortem pics are just what they are, clinical and forensic images of a corpse but they are all over the internet in LURID display grossly and grotesquely intended to produce powerful emotional response which the posters proceed to marshal into strong antipathy toward CoS. this is classically sensationalist yellow journalism.

Okay, here is the "before" picture.
150px-Lisa_raw_scan.jpg


The Church of Scientology still tells people, including its own members, that she died from a blod clot caused by the car accident and there is nothing more to this story.

The "after" photos are an extremely fast method of demonstrating that they are lying. She was in Scientology custody for 17 days and came out looking like that. Whatever finished her off in the end is only part of the issue.

I assume that any Scientologist who was in the COS at that point has been fed the "shore story" about Lisa McPherson. If they actually look at the photos it becomes harder for them to pretend that the official story is plausible.
 
Okay, here is the "before" picture.
150px-Lisa_raw_scan.jpg


The Church of Scientology still tells people, including its own members, that she died from a blod clot caused by the car accident and there is nothing more to this story.

The "after" photos are an extremely fast method of demonstrating that they are lying. She was in Scientology custody for 17 days and came out looking like that. Whatever finished her off in the end is only part of the issue.

I assume that any Scientologist who was in the COS at that point has been fed the "shore story" about Lisa McPherson. If they actually look at the photos it becomes harder for them to pretend that the official story is plausible.

thanks for the snapshot, very nice. there's a proper portrait photo and it would be nice if someone would post with a fitting frame and an "in memoriam... " with DOB and date of departure...

you know...

the usual...
 
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